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I was thinking of ways to buff Dutch (all I think really about ) that rewards skilled gameplay, without making them op or changing any of the matchups. This seemed like a nice quality of life change since Dutch is such a reactive civ.

So there's my idea, what do you guys think?

Not that any of my ideas matter...

dutchdude117 wrote:I was thinking of ways to buff Dutch (all I think really about ) that rewards skilled gameplay, without making them op or changing any of the matchups. This seemed like a nice quality of life change since Dutch is such a reactive civ.

So there's my idea, what do you guys think?

Not that any of my ideas matter...

That's cuz some pro player's are arrogant and just let you feel like a nobody when it comes to the game...

I think that having the ability to train envoys is more than enough. An envoy is like what? 50 food? ... i'm sure any civ would be more than happy to spend 50 food on a scouting unit. As a primary French player, hell, i'd pay 100 wood for another scout every game, that option just isn't available.

Skilled gameplay, as mentioned, would mean 9/10 times the envoy should be alive upon hitting the Commerce Age, and by the time Dutch hit Fortress, they should be able to spare 50 food imo...

davidmacedo95 wrote:I think that having the ability to train envoys is more than enough. An envoy is like what? 50 food? ... i'm sure any civ would be more than happy to spend 50 food on a scouting unit. As a primary French player, hell, i'd pay 100 wood for another scout every game, that option just isn't available.

Skilled gameplay, as mentioned, would mean 9/10 times the envoy should be alive upon hitting the Commerce Age, and buy the time Dutch hit Fortress, they should be able to spare 50 food imo

Once I explore the whole map, I sacrifice my Envoy as a meatshield to get bigger treasures so usually It doesn't last that long...
Also while you train envoys you loose villager production time and your eco lags behind.

Seems like a really cool idea, although the impact would probably be low.

V I S I O N

Also, Dutch are always so classy with their Envoys, we should give them more just to show off

Jotunir wrote:

davidmacedo95 wrote:I think that having the ability to train envoys is more than enough. An envoy is like what? 50 food? ... i'm sure any civ would be more than happy to spend 50 food on a scouting unit. As a primary French player, hell, i'd pay 100 wood for another scout every game, that option just isn't available.

Skilled gameplay, as mentioned, would mean 9/10 times the envoy should be alive upon hitting the Commerce Age, and buy the time Dutch hit Fortress, they should be able to spare 50 food imo

Once I explore the whole map, I sacrifice my Envoy as a meatshield to get bigger treasures so usually It doesn't last that long...
Also while you train envoys you loose villager production time and your eco lags behind.

I don't think the fact that you use your envoy to gather treasures justifies getting a new one for free...

And the rest of the points... just allow the dutch explorer to train an envoy, the same way china train disciples, spains train dogs...

Envoy cost coin right ? And more than 50... They also take up villager production time. I don't know if it is necessary or useful, but in general I'm very much in favour of small buffs like this rather than messing around with units stats.

they train fast and cost 50f, also shouldnt really lose your starting envoy for the first 6 mins

davidmacedo95 wrote:

Jotunir wrote:

davidmacedo95 wrote:I think that having the ability to train envoys is more than enough. An envoy is like what? 50 food? ... i'm sure any civ would be more than happy to spend 50 food on a scouting unit. As a primary French player, hell, i'd pay 100 wood for another scout every game, that option just isn't available.

Skilled gameplay, as mentioned, would mean 9/10 times the envoy should be alive upon hitting the Commerce Age, and buy the time Dutch hit Fortress, they should be able to spare 50 food imo

Once I explore the whole map, I sacrifice my Envoy as a meatshield to get bigger treasures so usually It doesn't last that long...
Also while you train envoys you loose villager production time and your eco lags behind.

I don't think the fact that you use your envoy to gather treasures justifies getting a new one for free...

And the rest of the points... just allow the dutch explorer to train an envoy, the same way china train disciples, spains train dogs...

Actually that is a good idea...

davidmacedo95 wrote:

Jotunir wrote:

davidmacedo95 wrote:I think that having the ability to train envoys is more than enough. An envoy is like what? 50 food? ... i'm sure any civ would be more than happy to spend 50 food on a scouting unit. As a primary French player, hell, i'd pay 100 wood for another scout every game, that option just isn't available.

Skilled gameplay, as mentioned, would mean 9/10 times the envoy should be alive upon hitting the Commerce Age, and buy the time Dutch hit Fortress, they should be able to spare 50 food imo

Once I explore the whole map, I sacrifice my Envoy as a meatshield to get bigger treasures so usually It doesn't last that long...
Also while you train envoys you loose villager production time and your eco lags behind.

I don't think the fact that you use your envoy to gather treasures justifies getting a new one for free...

And the rest of the points... just allow the dutch explorer to train an envoy, the same way china train disciples, spains train dogs...

I like that idea.

Luciofrancosi wrote:

davidmacedo95 wrote:

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Jotunir wrote:

davidmacedo95 wrote:I think that having the ability to train envoys is more than enough. An envoy is like what? 50 food? ... i'm sure any civ would be more than happy to spend 50 food on a scouting unit. As a primary French player, hell, i'd pay 100 wood for another scout every game, that option just isn't available.

Skilled gameplay, as mentioned, would mean 9/10 times the envoy should be alive upon hitting the Commerce Age, and buy the time Dutch hit Fortress, they should be able to spare 50 food imo

Once I explore the whole map, I sacrifice my Envoy as a meatshield to get bigger treasures so usually It doesn't last that long...
Also while you train envoys you loose villager production time and your eco lags behind.

I don't think the fact that you use your envoy to gather treasures justifies getting a new one for free...

And the rest of the points... just allow the dutch explorer to train an envoy, the same way china train disciples, spains train dogs...

I like that idea.

Dutch supremacy will come one day, I am sure of it.

Sure why not.

Tbh scouting can be really important as Dutch. I feel like Dutch relies on getting that perfect lead. Weirdly enough my envoy + explorer sometimes dont seem to be enough to get all the information I need, but training one seems too expensive.

A free envoy would kinda just die anyway. With that slow speed and no stealth, you just can't keep it alive, even without units your opponent can kill it with their explo. It just won't be able to scout their base without dying, I guess you could leave it out on the map though, and try to spot army movements while barely staying out of their LOS. That's just not a very relevant buff I think.

If dutch does need a buff, which I don't think (if anything the map pool just sucks for them), we can start by turning 7 ruyts into 8, as that card is currently awful.
If their colonial is judged too slow, their +15% extra coin base gathering rate could be turned into +20% (or +25%?). It shouldn't make their eco broken later on, as you just don't have so many vils on coin as dutch, but it would slightly speed up their early game. Would also buff builds that involve less greedy play, e.g bank wagon opening or 3 banks FF, as you need more vils on coin when doing these.

Kaiserklein wrote: If their colonial is judged too slow, their +15% extra coin base gathering rate could be turned into +20% (or +25%?). It shouldn't make their eco broken later on, as you just don't have so many vils on coin as dutch, but it would slightly speed up their early game. Would also buff builds that involve less greedy play, e.g bank wagon opening or 3 banks FF, as you need more vils on coin when doing these.

Their base rate is the same as all other civs. They just receive a starting tech for +15% so increasing this would have a marginal impact since all other upgrades are off the same base as other settlers (the 0.60/sec). So they'd always just gather an extra 0.03x coin per second.

I thought the upgrades scale off their 0.69 coin/sec rate? But I'm probably wrong.

Either way, it's marginal yeah (which is good cause we don't want a big buff to this at least decent civ). Assuming a +5% coin gathering boost, We're talking about something like at most +1 vil on their total eco, when maxed on vils (and with coin mines left on the map). Considering the dutch maxed eco is crap anyway, who cares.
Before that, it's probably just less than half an extra vil on average.

Is it not better to just give them +100g and -100f starting crate? if we talk about that level of buff ^^

The base is 0.6, not 0.69, the additional 15% is due to a tech they begin with so any additional upgrade is off the base 0.60 from my understanding of how it’s coded.

chronique wrote:Is it not better to just give them +100g and -100f starting crate? if we talk about that level of buff ^^

What do you mean "that level of buff"? +5% coin gathering rate for dutch would be a small buff.
Anyway, we already had the 500g 200w start, and it meant you could go 14 up while having your bank up in time too often. Or even just 15 up and stack enough food in early colo to drop your banks as soon as you get wood crates.

Kaiserklein wrote: Anyway, we already had the 500g 200w start, and it meant you could go 14 up while having your bank up in time too often. Or even just 15 up and stack enough food in early colo to drop your banks as soon as you get wood crates.

Dutch doesn't looks op to me with 500g ^^

Probably not overall because of the garbage map pool where dutch will either lose to stagecoach or water. But they were too strong on the proper map (which is what we get in tournies). That's how they felt when I played them.

I am surprised at the amount of people opposing this. Does anyone who voted no care to share their reasoning? Much appreciated for the participation from everyone who voted!

As people said, it wouldn't be a significant buff, but why not ? It would reward skill at scouting.