3v3 Tournament Hosted by RøyaL Clan

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Re: 3v3 Tournament Hosted by RøyaL Clan

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Post by JaiLeD »

gibson wrote:very unfare how kaisters team was treated TBH
First of all, note that while Antz, Tad, and Amm are committee members, none of them had any vote or official say in any decision during this whole ordeal.

Kaister's whole team, and Antz's whole team agreed to the time slot and what time they were playing.

Kaister had 3 players on his team, Antz *had* 3 players on his team. They had a 2 hour window to play their match. Knarloc showed up 45 minutes late, Kaister showed up 1h 10m late, Amm showed up 2 hours late.

30 minutes into no one showing up from Kaister's team the committee needed to make a decision on what to do about it because this was the only time slot both teams agreed on, and were able to make for that whole week. The committee decided to postpone the automatic disqualification, and instead decided to give the first game to Antz's team, and wait for Kaister's team a bit longer.

1hour 30 minutes into Kaister's team not showing up Herbiemaster (a player from Antz's team) had to bow out as he was unable to play possible full games at that point.

2 hours after the scheduled time Amm showed up. At this point Antz's team was down a top of the second round player and by all fairness it could have been an automatic disqualification for Kaister's team.

2 hours 10 minutes past the scheduled time, Kaister's team was ok with Tad subbing in for Herbiemaster, and Antz's team was fine with him subbing in also. The committee voted on what exactly to do about penalizing Kaister's team or not. All committee members available voted, note as stated previously that Antz, Tad, and Amm did not have a vote. The vote was 5-1 in favor of Kaister's team and Antz's team playing, but giving a 1-0 game advantage to Antz. Both teams agreed to this.

Going into the future of this tournament we will handle all no-shows the same way we handled this one. For future tournaments we will have much more specified rules on what happens to players not showing up to matches.

No one, and yes I do mean no one wanted this to go down this way. Antz's team would rather have played as a team, and would have rather played with no given advantage to either side. Antz said after the match "Ya, it was a disaster I hope that we can avoid in the future. I don't think anyone wins in situations like that. I certainly would have preferred a normal series...with people showing up at the agreed upon time." Kaister and his team I'm sure would have preferred to show up on time and not to have had all this commotion. The committee and tournament as a whole would have much preferred for things to go smoothly and had a good series, along with some expected great games to cast.


Hopefully this transparency will help clarify some of the issues. If there are any more questions please feel free to message me and I'll be happy to discuss them.
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Re: 3v3 Tournament Hosted by RøyaL Clan

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Post by princeofcarthage »

gibson wrote:very unfare how kaisters team was treated TBH
For the first time probably I agree with you. They should have been treated fairly and given instant disqualification.
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Re: 3v3 Tournament Hosted by RøyaL Clan

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Post by TheNameDaniel »

Can someone sort this out @gibson
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Re: 3v3 Tournament Hosted by RøyaL Clan

Post by Le Hussard sur le toit »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:2 pr25 is a lot tbh. A pr40 can probably defeat 2 pr20, maybe pr22 but not higher. Also it depends on their strategy, if they both go for an all in rush you probably can't hold.
Aizamk beat me and a PR 25 in a 2 v 1 so I think to PR25 is possible.
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Re: 3v3 Tournament Hosted by RøyaL Clan

Post by princeofcarthage »

I am torn between roasting above poster or not. His message is perfectly set up for a nice burn. :(
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Re: 3v3 Tournament Hosted by RøyaL Clan

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Post by KnArLoC »

While my team has accepted that we lost our series and are looking forward to competing for the third place match, we want to clarify some things that are inaccurate in your post.
JaiLeD wrote:
gibson wrote:very unfare how kaisters team was treated TBH
First of all, note that while Antz, Tad, and Amm are committee members, none of them had any vote or official say in any decision during this whole ordeal.


Seems pretty clear that antz (and tad) were a big part of the discussion and influencing the decision making process from the committee.

Plus, if antz, tad, and amm had no vote or official say, all of them should not have had access to the discord conversation thread, period. Why were they included then? Why were they able to read the other committee member's thoughts and make comments, which may directly or indirectly influence the decisions of other committee members?

Then there's this other issue where antz is a member of the royal clan. What reassurance is there for our team that the committee was impartial and did not give him favorable treatment, even if only slightly? If the situations were reversed would antz's team have been punished equally harshly? I'm not accusing anyone of playing favorites here, my point is that our team has no way of knowing if antz's team would have been punished the same in a reverse situation due to this not being set in stone in the rules beforehand.
JaiLeD wrote: Kaister's whole team, and Antz's whole team agreed to the time slot and what time they were playing.

Kaister had 3 players on his team, Antz *had* 3 players on his team. They had a 2 hour window to play their match. Knarloc showed up 45 minutes late, Kaister showed up 1h 10m late, Amm showed up 2 hours late.
No arguments here, we agreed to this time, and we were late. I apologize again to antz and his team, and my team and I did apologize multiple times. I just wanted to clarify that it wasn't malicious and we weren't late on purpose or because we didn't care about our games, both Kaister and I forgot it was daylight savings time that morning and we didn't move our clocks an hour so that's why we were an hour late. Amm thought it was 10 PM, not AM (lol), no comments there.
JaiLeD wrote: 30 minutes into no one showing up from Kaister's team the committee needed to make a decision on what to do about it because this was the only time slot both teams agreed on, and were able to make for that whole week. The committee decided to postpone the automatic disqualification, and instead decided to give the first game to Antz's team, and wait for Kaister's team a bit longer.

1hour 30 minutes into Kaister's team not showing up Herbiemaster (a player from Antz's team) had to bow out as he was unable to play possible full games at that point.

2 hours after the scheduled time Amm showed up. At this point Antz's team was down a top of the second round player and by all fairness it could have been an automatic disqualification for Kaister's team.

2 hours 10 minutes past the scheduled time, Kaister's team was ok with Tad subbing in for Herbiemaster, and Antz's team was fine with him subbing in also. The committee voted on what exactly to do about penalizing Kaister's team or not. All committee members available voted, note as stated previously that Antz, Tad, and Amm did not have a vote. The vote was 5-1 in favor of Kaister's team and Antz's team playing, but giving a 1-0 game advantage to Antz. Both teams agreed to this.
Saying our team was ok with Tad subbing in for Herbie is misleading at best and an outright lie at worst. If you put a gun to someone's head and saying you must agree to this or we will shoot you, does this mean the person in this case is actually agreeing? The gun in this case is a metaphor for threats of instant disqualification of our team. See below where Tad said take it or leave it and saying that our team would be instantly DQ'd if we didn't accept Tad as a sub. Again, here I'm not arguing that our team should not have been punished at all, I'm just saying that your comment that we "agreed" to this is disingeuous.



Also, why is a captain of another team subbing in for a first round pick of a different team? This isn't a good look and seems inappropriate. Besides didn't you say that Tad had no say in the decision making process here? Seems pretty clear from the screenshot above that he has a massive say to me. In addition, see another screen shot below where another member said that he's "fine with putting the power mostly in antz's hand here". Seems like a conflict of interest, where a captain of a team has the power to decide the appropriate punishment for the opposing team.


JaiLeD wrote: Going into the future of this tournament we will handle all no-shows the same way we handled this one. For future tournaments we will have much more specified rules on what happens to players not showing up to matches.
It's good that the rules are clear now and consistency will try to be maintained going forward.

However, I have heard that other teams were substantially late to their matches. I don't know how true this is, but if this is indeed true, were they penalized a game for showing up late? If this is true, adding or changing rules midway through the tournament is a unfair and unjust punishment for our team. In this case, our team should be treated the same as the other teams and allowed to play (possibly rescheduling due to Herbie being unavailable) without losing a game automatically or having a captain sub in for a first round pick. Update: I have been informed that tad's team was apparently late for their match with zanerre? Is this true? If so, how late and was his team punished at all?

Why was rescheduling, perhaps with other more minor punishments like map choice, etc. not considered? If it was because the deadline was that weekend, keep in mind that due to herbie's schedule they were only able to play at specific times and only during a weekend. Our team was available during the entire week but we decided to accommodate his schedule by agreeing to play on the weekend, which was right before the deadline. Then this was used against us, with people from the committee accusing our team of putting this off to the last minute, despite the fact we were available to play at any other time.
JaiLeD wrote: No one, and yes I do mean no one wanted this to go down this way. Antz's team would rather have played as a team, and would have rather played with no given advantage to either side. Antz said after the match "Ya, it was a disaster I hope that we can avoid in the future. I don't think anyone wins in situations like that. I certainly would have preferred a normal series...with people showing up at the agreed upon time." Kaister and his team I'm sure would have preferred to show up on time and not to have had all this commotion. The committee and tournament as a whole would have much preferred for things to go smoothly and had a good series, along with some expected great games to cast.

Hopefully this transparency will help clarify some of the issues. If there are any more questions please feel free to message me and I'll be happy to discuss them.
Agreed on all counts here.
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Re: 3v3 Tournament Hosted by RøyaL Clan

Post by TheNameDaniel »

KnArLoC wrote:While my team has accepted that we lost our series and are looking forward to competing for the third place match, we want to clarify some things that are inaccurate in your post.
JaiLeD wrote:
gibson wrote:very unfare how kaisters team was treated TBH
First of all, note that while Antz, Tad, and Amm are committee members, none of them had any vote or official say in any decision during this whole ordeal.


Seems pretty clear that antz (and tad) were a big part of the discussion and influencing the decision making process from the committee.

Plus, if antz, tad, and amm had no vote or official say, all of them should not have had access to the discord conversation thread, period. Why were they included then? Why were they able to read the other committee member's thoughts and make comments, which may directly or indirectly influence the decisions of other committee members?

Then there's this other issue where antz is a member of the royal clan. What reassurance is there for our team that the committee was impartial and did not give him favorable treatment, even if only slightly? If the situations were reversed would antz's team have been punished equally harshly? I'm not accusing anyone of playing favorites here, my point is that our team has no way of knowing if antz's team would have been punished the same in a reverse situation due to this not being set in stone in the rules beforehand.
JaiLeD wrote: Kaister's whole team, and Antz's whole team agreed to the time slot and what time they were playing.

Kaister had 3 players on his team, Antz *had* 3 players on his team. They had a 2 hour window to play their match. Knarloc showed up 45 minutes late, Kaister showed up 1h 10m late, Amm showed up 2 hours late.
No arguments here, we agreed to this time, and we were late. I apologize again to antz and his team, and my team and I did apologize multiple times. I just wanted to clarify that it wasn't malicious and we weren't late on purpose or because we didn't care about our games, both Kaister and I forgot it was daylight savings time that morning and we didn't move our clocks an hour so that's why we were an hour late. Amm thought it was 10 PM, not AM (lol), no comments there.
JaiLeD wrote: 30 minutes into no one showing up from Kaister's team the committee needed to make a decision on what to do about it because this was the only time slot both teams agreed on, and were able to make for that whole week. The committee decided to postpone the automatic disqualification, and instead decided to give the first game to Antz's team, and wait for Kaister's team a bit longer.

1hour 30 minutes into Kaister's team not showing up Herbiemaster (a player from Antz's team) had to bow out as he was unable to play possible full games at that point.

2 hours after the scheduled time Amm showed up. At this point Antz's team was down a top of the second round player and by all fairness it could have been an automatic disqualification for Kaister's team.

2 hours 10 minutes past the scheduled time, Kaister's team was ok with Tad subbing in for Herbiemaster, and Antz's team was fine with him subbing in also. The committee voted on what exactly to do about penalizing Kaister's team or not. All committee members available voted, note as stated previously that Antz, Tad, and Amm did not have a vote. The vote was 5-1 in favor of Kaister's team and Antz's team playing, but giving a 1-0 game advantage to Antz. Both teams agreed to this.
Saying our team was ok with Tad subbing in for Herbie is misleading at best and an outright lie at worst. If you put a gun to someone's head and saying you must agree to this or we will shoot you, does this mean the person in this case is actually agreeing? The gun in this case is a metaphor for threats of instant disqualification of our team. See below where Tad said take it or leave it and saying that our team would be instantly DQ'd if we didn't accept Tad as a sub.



Also, why is a captain of another team subbing in for a first round pick of a different team? This isn't a good look and seems inappropriate. Besides didn't you say that Tad had no say in the decision making process here? Seems pretty clear from the screenshot above that he has a massive say to me. In addition, see another screen shot below where another member said that he's "fine with putting the power mostly in antz's hand here". Yep, no conflict of interest to be seen here, where a captain of a team has the power to decide the appropriate punishment for the opposing team.


JaiLeD wrote: Going into the future of this tournament we will handle all no-shows the same way we handled this one. For future tournaments we will have much more specified rules on what happens to players not showing up to matches.
It's good that the rules are clear now and consistency will try to be maintained going forward.

However, I have heard that other teams were substantially late to their matches. I don't know how true this is, but if this is indeed true, were they penalized a game for showing up late? If this is true, adding or changing rules midway through the tournament is a unfair and unjust punishment for our team. In this case, our team should be treated the same as the other teams and allowed to play (possibly rescheduling due to Herbie being unavailable) without losing a game automatically or having a captain sub in for a first round pick. Update: I have been informed that tad's team was apparently late for their match with zanerre? Is this true? If so, how late and was his team punished at all?

Why was rescheduling, perhaps with other more minor punishments like map choice, etc. not considered? If it was because the deadline was that weekend, keep in mind that due to herbie's schedule they were only able to play at specific times and only during a weekend. Our team was available during the entire week but we decided to accommodate his schedule by agreeing to play on the weekend, which was right before the deadline. Then this was used against us, with people from the committee accusing our team of putting this off to the last minute, despite the fact we were available to play at any other time.
JaiLeD wrote: No one, and yes I do mean no one wanted this to go down this way. Antz's team would rather have played as a team, and would have rather played with no given advantage to either side. Antz said after the match "Ya, it was a disaster I hope that we can avoid in the future. I don't think anyone wins in situations like that. I certainly would have preferred a normal series...with people showing up at the agreed upon time." Kaister and his team I'm sure would have preferred to show up on time and not to have had all this commotion. The committee and tournament as a whole would have much preferred for things to go smoothly and had a good series, along with some expected great games to cast.

Hopefully this transparency will help clarify some of the issues. If there are any more questions please feel free to message me and I'll be happy to discuss them.
Agreed on all counts here.
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Re: 3v3 Tournament Hosted by RøyaL Clan

Post by gibson »

Good example of why tourney admins shouldnt be playing in the tourney tbh
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Re: 3v3 Tournament Hosted by RøyaL Clan

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Post by don_artie »

I'm part of the committee and will drop my 2 cents, please note this is just my message so i'm not speaking for others or anything like that. I wasn't awake during the time of this happening so I didn't manage to state anything while it was happening, just read back on it later on. Basically as knarloc said, there should've been something set in stone within the rules about no shows, this would prevent any confusion/discussion about people being threated unfairly or whatever like that. I mean when the rule isn't there (which was the case now), I can understand how the question can be raised whether a different person with better connections to the committee could be threated differently. That said if there was a rule for it, I would personally have had it set up in a way that being very late should either result in DQ or let the opposing team decide whether they want to claim the win or not. In my personal experience it's a very shitty feeling to be there for something on time and finding out others aren't which causes you to have to just sit about. In some situations rescheduling could be easy, and I expect antz would have maybe been more lenient then (although still frustrated obviously). In this case apparantly herbiemaster isn't available often so the games really had to happen on the scheduled time. I also think there is a different feel to it when 2/3 of the enemy team is available and you're just wondering why one guy isn't showing up in comparison to having 0/3 from enemy team be online and you feel like it's being done to you on purpose.

So anyway in conclusion; 1. there shoulda been a rule for this situation 2. there wasn't a rule so a decission had to be made, the problem got posted into the committee by antz and a vote was cast by other committee members, imo this is the right thing to go about it. 3. The decission that got made was that tad replaced for herbie and antz team got a 1-0 lead. In my own opnion a DQ would've been less messy, but so be it
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Re: 3v3 Tournament Hosted by RøyaL Clan

Post by KnArLoC »

don_artie wrote:I'm part of the committee and will drop my 2 cents, please note this is just my message so i'm not speaking for others or anything like that. I wasn't awake during the time of this happening so I didn't manage to state anything while it was happening, just read back on it later on. Basically as knarloc said, there should've been something set in stone within the rules about no shows, this would prevent any confusion/discussion about people being threated unfairly or whatever like that. I mean when the rule isn't there (which was the case now), I can understand how the question can be raised whether a different person with better connections to the committee could be threated differently. That said if there was a rule for it, I would personally have had it set up in a way that being very late should either result in DQ or let the opposing team decide whether they want to claim the win or not. In my personal experience it's a very shitty feeling to be there for something on time and finding out others aren't which causes you to have to just sit about. In some situations rescheduling could be easy, and I expect antz would have maybe been more lenient then (although still frustrated obviously). In this case apparantly herbiemaster isn't available often so the games really had to happen on the scheduled time. I also think there is a different feel to it when 2/3 of the enemy team is available and you're just wondering why one guy isn't showing up in comparison to having 0/3 from enemy team be online and you feel like it's being done to you on purpose.

So anyway in conclusion; 1. there shoulda been a rule for this situation 2. there wasn't a rule so a decission had to be made, the problem got posted into the committee by antz and a vote was cast by other committee members, imo this is the right thing to go about it. 3. The decission that got made was that tad replaced for herbie and antz team got a 1-0 lead. In my own opnion a DQ would've been less messy, but so be it

Thanks for your insight. There is also the question of how late is too late? Since other teams were late, what is the cut off point between a lighter punishment and a full on DQ?

Plus, we already explained the reason. After the explanation, any continued anger about it possibly being done on purpose is just choosing to hold a grudge which could cloud judgment (since it wasn't on purpose).

To be clear, I'm not arguing that we should have another chance to play antz's team, we did initially fuck up (even if it was a honest mistake), and we accept that. My earlier post here is just to shed some light on things that weren't completely accurate on the transparency post, and this discussion also helps future tournaments in such cases which may happen again in the future.
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Re: 3v3 Tournament Hosted by RøyaL Clan

Post by don_artie »

KnArLoC wrote: Thanks for your insight. There is also the question of how late is too late? Since other teams were late, what is the cut off point between a lighter punishment and a full on DQ?

To be clear, I'm not arguing that we should have another chance to play antz's team, we did initially fuck up (even if it was a honest mistake), and we accept that. My earlier post here is just to shed some light on things that weren't completely accurate on the transparency post, and this discussion also helps future tournaments and this encourages them to be 100% clear on what will happen in such cases.
yeah your post was fine, you were just bringing some points not coming out with pitchforks or something. imo 10 mins late should probably be the break off point, anything past 10 mins the opposing team should have the option to claim the win. I personally prefer giving the opponent the option to claim win rather than just straight up DQ'ing. For example if I play chess with a mate on a 10 min timer, if his time runs out but the game is still close and fun i'd possibly rather keep playing than just claim it straight away. Anyway that's probably just my opnion, so I'd think a good rule is 10 min= DQ. I wouldn't be surprised if esoc tourneys already have rules on these sorta things
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Re: 3v3 Tournament Hosted by RøyaL Clan

Post by JaiLeD »

KnArLoC wrote:While my team has accepted that we lost our series and are looking forward to competing for the third place match, we want to clarify some things that are inaccurate in your post.
JaiLeD wrote:
gibson wrote:very unfare how kaisters team was treated TBH
First of all, note that while Antz, Tad, and Amm are committee members, none of them had any vote or official say in any decision during this whole ordeal.


Seems pretty clear that antz (and tad) were a big part of the discussion and influencing the decision making process from the committee.

Plus, if antz, tad, and amm had no vote or official say, all of them should not have had access to the discord conversation thread, period. Why were they included then? Why were they able to read the other committee member's thoughts and make comments, which may directly or indirectly influence the decisions of other committee members?

Then there's this other issue where antz is a member of the royal clan. What reassurance is there for our team that the committee was impartial and did not give him favorable treatment, even if only slightly? If the situations were reversed would antz's team have been punished equally harshly? I'm not accusing anyone of playing favorites here, my point is that our team has no way of knowing if antz's team would have been punished the same in a reverse situation due to this not being set in stone in the rules beforehand.
JaiLeD wrote: Kaister's whole team, and Antz's whole team agreed to the time slot and what time they were playing.

Kaister had 3 players on his team, Antz *had* 3 players on his team. They had a 2 hour window to play their match. Knarloc showed up 45 minutes late, Kaister showed up 1h 10m late, Amm showed up 2 hours late.
No arguments here, we agreed to this time, and we were late. I apologize again to antz and his team, and my team and I did apologize multiple times. I just wanted to clarify that it wasn't malicious and we weren't late on purpose or because we didn't care about our games, both Kaister and I forgot it was daylight savings time that morning and we didn't move our clocks an hour so that's why we were an hour late. Amm thought it was 10 PM, not AM (lol), no comments there.
JaiLeD wrote: 30 minutes into no one showing up from Kaister's team the committee needed to make a decision on what to do about it because this was the only time slot both teams agreed on, and were able to make for that whole week. The committee decided to postpone the automatic disqualification, and instead decided to give the first game to Antz's team, and wait for Kaister's team a bit longer.

1hour 30 minutes into Kaister's team not showing up Herbiemaster (a player from Antz's team) had to bow out as he was unable to play possible full games at that point.

2 hours after the scheduled time Amm showed up. At this point Antz's team was down a top of the second round player and by all fairness it could have been an automatic disqualification for Kaister's team.

2 hours 10 minutes past the scheduled time, Kaister's team was ok with Tad subbing in for Herbiemaster, and Antz's team was fine with him subbing in also. The committee voted on what exactly to do about penalizing Kaister's team or not. All committee members available voted, note as stated previously that Antz, Tad, and Amm did not have a vote. The vote was 5-1 in favor of Kaister's team and Antz's team playing, but giving a 1-0 game advantage to Antz. Both teams agreed to this.
Saying our team was ok with Tad subbing in for Herbie is misleading at best and an outright lie at worst. If you put a gun to someone's head and saying you must agree to this or we will shoot you, does this mean the person in this case is actually agreeing? The gun in this case is a metaphor for threats of instant disqualification of our team. See below where Tad said take it or leave it and saying that our team would be instantly DQ'd if we didn't accept Tad as a sub. Again, here I'm not arguing that our team should not have been punished at all, I'm just saying that your comment that we "agreed" to this is disingeuous.



Also, why is a captain of another team subbing in for a first round pick of a different team? This isn't a good look and seems inappropriate. Besides didn't you say that Tad had no say in the decision making process here? Seems pretty clear from the screenshot above that he has a massive say to me. In addition, see another screen shot below where another member said that he's "fine with putting the power mostly in antz's hand here". Yep, no conflict of interest to be seen here, where a captain of a team has the power to decide the appropriate punishment for the opposing team.


JaiLeD wrote: Going into the future of this tournament we will handle all no-shows the same way we handled this one. For future tournaments we will have much more specified rules on what happens to players not showing up to matches.
It's good that the rules are clear now and consistency will try to be maintained going forward.

However, I have heard that other teams were substantially late to their matches. I don't know how true this is, but if this is indeed true, were they penalized a game for showing up late? If this is true, adding or changing rules midway through the tournament is a unfair and unjust punishment for our team. In this case, our team should be treated the same as the other teams and allowed to play (possibly rescheduling due to Herbie being unavailable) without losing a game automatically or having a captain sub in for a first round pick. Update: I have been informed that tad's team was apparently late for their match with zanerre? Is this true? If so, how late and was his team punished at all?

Why was rescheduling, perhaps with other more minor punishments like map choice, etc. not considered? If it was because the deadline was that weekend, keep in mind that due to herbie's schedule they were only able to play at specific times and only during a weekend. Our team was available during the entire week but we decided to accommodate his schedule by agreeing to play on the weekend, which was right before the deadline. Then this was used against us, with people from the committee accusing our team of putting this off to the last minute, despite the fact we were available to play at any other time.
JaiLeD wrote: No one, and yes I do mean no one wanted this to go down this way. Antz's team would rather have played as a team, and would have rather played with no given advantage to either side. Antz said after the match "Ya, it was a disaster I hope that we can avoid in the future. I don't think anyone wins in situations like that. I certainly would have preferred a normal series...with people showing up at the agreed upon time." Kaister and his team I'm sure would have preferred to show up on time and not to have had all this commotion. The committee and tournament as a whole would have much preferred for things to go smoothly and had a good series, along with some expected great games to cast.

Hopefully this transparency will help clarify some of the issues. If there are any more questions please feel free to message me and I'll be happy to discuss them.
Agreed on all counts here.
-Antz was minimally joining in the conversation on what to do. Tad also did not show up until late into the conversation, approximately 1 hour into it, he did converse quite a bit once he did join the conversation though. Note that there was quite a bit of discussion in the committee chat with opposite opinions on what to do. I personally voiced the side of more lenient consequences and you can be assured that that side was heard. There were also other people voicing harsher consequences such as immediate disqualification.
-It's true that Antz is a member of the Royal clan, so is Amm though. Both are officers in the Royal clan even. No partiality was given to either side.
-Regarding you being forced to choose Tad as a replacement to Herbie, I understand your point. I don't know how this was conveyed to you guys, all I know is that Amm conveyed to the committee that "were fine if u sub in". Also note that I'm *pretty sure* Tad's statement of take it or leave it, was in response to the 1-0 game advantage that the committee decided on.
-Tad was subbed in to be a replacement to Herbie because it was the closest we could find in skill level at the time. It was extremely late for Yayoshi and they could not wait for another sub.
-Previous matches had indeed been rescheduled, but not 2 hours past the decided upon time. The next available time that both teams could have played was a whole week later.
-Every time a match has been rescheduled in this tournament we have given the final decision to the team that had shown up on time, Antz even went as far as taking a sub to accommodate Kaister's team not showing up. I don't see an argument here where Antz's team should have been given a disadvantage for showing up on time to the match, while the other team was as much as 2 hours late.

My goal of the post was to be transparent, and explain where we were coming from as a committee. In an ideal world none of this would have happened, I can assure you though that there was no malfeasance going on, I give my word on this.

Imagine for a moment if Kaister's team had won both games due to Antz having a sub and literally no practice as a team. The tables would have been completely turned and it would have been considered unfair for them... I honestly think that the decision by the committee was fair.
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Re: 3v3 Tournament Hosted by RøyaL Clan

Post by _tank »

As a participant in the tourney I'm glad the result is in the open rather than just rumors, even if the result was controversial. FWIW, I agree with don_artie here about the outcome.

I know that we had to reschedule a few of the games due to one player not being able to make it, though no case was quite so extreme as all 3 players being missing, and since the captains worked it out between each other there was no need to involve the tourney organizers. I can see how that wasn't possible for this series as the scheduled time seems to have been the only possible time before the game deadline.

For player-organized tourneys in other games I've played the rules were something like (for a Bo3):
1) Captains agree on a time, rescheduling is OK as long as it's 24 hours in advance (IMO 24 hours is pretty strict) or both captains agree (which they usually will because people just want to play the games)
2) 15 minutes late, give up one game in series
3) 30 minutes late, forfeit series
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Re: 3v3 Tournament Hosted by RøyaL Clan

Post by KnArLoC »

JaiLeD wrote: -Antz was minimally joining in the conversation on what to do. Tad also did not show up until late into the conversation, approximately 1 hour into it, he did converse quite a bit once he did join the conversation though. Note that there was quite a bit of discussion in the committee chat with opposite opinions on what to do. I personally voiced the side of more lenient consequences and you can be assured that that side was heard. There were also other people voicing harsher consequences such as immediate disqualification.
-It's true that Antz is a member of the Royal clan, so is Amm though. Both are officers in the Royal clan even. No partiality was given to either side.
-Regarding you being forced to choose Tad as a replacement to Herbie, I understand your point. I don't know how this was conveyed to you guys, all I know is that Amm conveyed to the committee that "were fine if u sub in". Also note that I'm *pretty sure* Tad's statement of take it or leave it, was in response to the 1-0 game advantage that the committee decided on.
-Tad was subbed in to be a replacement to Herbie because it was the closest we could find in skill level at the time. It was extremely late for Yayoshi and they could not wait for another sub.
-Previous matches had indeed been rescheduled, but not 2 hours past the decided upon time. The next available time that both teams could have played was a whole week later.
-Every time a match has been rescheduled in this tournament we have given the final decision to the team that had shown up on time, Antz even went as far as taking a sub to accommodate Kaister's team not showing up. I don't see an argument here where Antz's team should have been given a disadvantage for showing up on time to the match, while the other team was as much as 2 hours late.

My goal of the post was to be transparent, and explain where we were coming from as a committee. In an ideal world none of this would have happened, I can assure you though that there was no malfeasance going on, I give my word on this.

Imagine for a moment if Kaister's team had won both games due to Antz having a sub and literally no practice as a team. The tables would have been completely turned and it would have been considered unfair for them... I honestly think that the decision by the committee was fair.
Thanks for your response.

I understand that they responded minimally or showed up late but the fact is that they were all part of the conversation at one point, and the optics are bad when they are making comments to the committee who makes the final decisions and such, as shown by my screenshot. The safest course of action would be to make a completely separate discord thread omitting all people who are involved in the match and conduct a vote there. That way the outsiders like me can have more confidence that the vote was done fairly, even if we continued to receive a very harsh penalty.

Point taken about Amm also being part of the clan, however, I do believe antz still has slightly more influence due to being a team captain and being in a easier position to demand certain things happen. If the rules don't cover what happened in that situations, then these decisions should ultimately be made by the rest of the committee, excluding any involved players at the moment. This just ties back to the previous point that it's easier, cleaner, and results in better optics to keep them out of any discussion.

I'm pretty sure amm tried to fight for us, but the fact is that we had no choice to agree to your terms regardless, which is fine considering the circumstances but saying it was in agreement for all is misleading. It would have been best if herbie could have played, but I do understand it was a tough thing to resolve, due to scheduling to accommodate someone in India.

In the end, whatever happened, happened. I do believe you that nothing overly shady happened and overall it was probably fair that antz's team ended up moving on in the end anyway, as like you said our team wasn't there at the time. There was no easy solution out of this situation and ultimately right now I don't have any problem with my team playing for 3rd.
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Re: 3v3 Tournament Hosted by RøyaL Clan

  • Quote

Post by JaiLeD »

KnArLoC wrote:
JaiLeD wrote: -Antz was minimally joining in the conversation on what to do. Tad also did not show up until late into the conversation, approximately 1 hour into it, he did converse quite a bit once he did join the conversation though. Note that there was quite a bit of discussion in the committee chat with opposite opinions on what to do. I personally voiced the side of more lenient consequences and you can be assured that that side was heard. There were also other people voicing harsher consequences such as immediate disqualification.
-It's true that Antz is a member of the Royal clan, so is Amm though. Both are officers in the Royal clan even. No partiality was given to either side.
-Regarding you being forced to choose Tad as a replacement to Herbie, I understand your point. I don't know how this was conveyed to you guys, all I know is that Amm conveyed to the committee that "were fine if u sub in". Also note that I'm *pretty sure* Tad's statement of take it or leave it, was in response to the 1-0 game advantage that the committee decided on.
-Tad was subbed in to be a replacement to Herbie because it was the closest we could find in skill level at the time. It was extremely late for Yayoshi and they could not wait for another sub.
-Previous matches had indeed been rescheduled, but not 2 hours past the decided upon time. The next available time that both teams could have played was a whole week later.
-Every time a match has been rescheduled in this tournament we have given the final decision to the team that had shown up on time, Antz even went as far as taking a sub to accommodate Kaister's team not showing up. I don't see an argument here where Antz's team should have been given a disadvantage for showing up on time to the match, while the other team was as much as 2 hours late.

My goal of the post was to be transparent, and explain where we were coming from as a committee. In an ideal world none of this would have happened, I can assure you though that there was no malfeasance going on, I give my word on this.

Imagine for a moment if Kaister's team had won both games due to Antz having a sub and literally no practice as a team. The tables would have been completely turned and it would have been considered unfair for them... I honestly think that the decision by the committee was fair.
Thanks for your response.

I understand that they responded minimally or showed up late but the fact is that they were all part of the conversation at one point, and the optics are bad when they are making comments to the committee who makes the final decisions and such, as shown by my screenshot. The safest course of action would be to make a completely separate discord thread omitting all people who are involved in the match and conduct a vote there. That way the outsiders like me can have more confidence that the vote was done fairly, even if we continued to receive a very harsh penalty.

Point taken about Amm also being part of the clan, however, I do believe antz still has slightly more influence due to being a team captain and being in a easier position to demand certain things happen. If the rules don't cover what happened in that situations, then these decisions should ultimately be made by the rest of the committee, excluding any involved players at the moment. This just ties back to the previous point that it's easier, cleaner, and results in better optics to keep them out of any discussion.

I'm pretty sure amm tried to fight for us, but the fact is that we had no choice to agree to your terms regardless, which is fine considering the circumstances but saying it was in agreement for all is misleading. It would have been best if herbie could have played, but I do understand it was a tough thing to resolve, due to scheduling to accommodate someone in India.

In the end, whatever happened, happened. I do believe you that nothing overly shady happened and overall it was probably fair that antz's team ended up moving on in the end anyway, as like you said our team wasn't there at the time. There was no easy solution out of this situation and ultimately right now I don't have any problem with my team playing for 3rd.
Much appreciate your response yourself :) One quick note, Antz tried really hard to not influence the opinion. He stated his opinion and what he was ok with, otherwise he joined in less than 5% of the committee discussion on this matter.

That's a really good point about having the vote in a separate chat with all committee members except for the ones playing, I actually really like this suggestion and will promote this for future resolving.

Good luck in the third place match! I'm excited to watch it.
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Re: 3v3 Tournament Hosted by RøyaL Clan

Post by bobabu »

Against Zanerre's team, I was around 15 minutes late. While I can't excuse being late for 15 minutes I think it's kinda harsh to punish a team for being 15 minutes too late. If 6 people come together throwing the series over 15 minutes seems kind of a stretch. Your team came later so the situation isn't the same @KnArLoC. While it was annoying for Zanerre's team they were still able to play and didn't have to leave. But yes it's debatable if 15 minutes is too much.
The tournament is a B-Series tournament where people mainly play for the sake of getting a fun game. So the rules should reflect that and prioritise playing the game over disqualification. So I'd set rules but they shouldn't be set in stone. So that a team with the right for a free win can still decide to play the game after all. Btw I had a similar problem I always forget that gmt is changed from -2 hours to -1 hour for me.
I was kind of disappointed that there were no stand-ins this time around.
I think adding stand-ins in the next tournament is a smart idea. I would also like to see a rule added so that everybody gets to play regardless. Forcing every team to rotate players after each match. This way stand-ins get to play and schedules are easier. Could even make it with 2 stand-ins.
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Re: 3v3 Tournament Hosted by RøyaL Clan

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

gibson wrote:Good example of why tourney admins shouldnt be playing in the tourney tbh
Agreed. I've always made it a personal rule to recuse myself from any admin decisions (in)directly involving myself and to forfeit when a conflict arises. Thus far I think I've only had to apply that rule once and forfeit when my opponent and I had a scheduling conflict that would've required an admin decision. Even if I would recuse myself in that situation, it would still be unfair to the other tournament admins to put them in that situation where their biases are evident. In EPL, I chose not to sign up at all because it would be impossible to administer and play at the same time. In these situations, it's better to be safe than sorry to uphold the veil of impartiality.
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Re: 3v3 Tournament Hosted by RøyaL Clan

Post by Riotcoke »

This is why tournament admins should not be participants in tournaments. Admin decisions should also be only that, admin decisons. Having random people as part of the decision is always going to be shit with this post from Tadstar being exemplary of why you don't do this.

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Re: 3v3 Tournament Hosted by RøyaL Clan

Post by Narida »

Well since there is so much drama I might as well add some: Bobabu was indeed around 15 minutes late to our (team Zannerres) game which I think is still just about acceptable.

What annoyed me more was that TAD floated the idea of Jailed subbing for their third pick which seemed awfully convenient, along with other things such as telling Zannere that he was sick of his team and that we should "2-0 them already" even though it was pretty clear that they were well prepared.
Also TAD was asking us to "just pick first" when it came to map bans and was implying that which server we play on makes no difference although I am pretty sure it does?
None of these things are big deal but I think it is terrible etiquette.

Finally I even though our team happened to benefit from this as well, I think either none or probably better all the recs of the preliminary rounds should be made available because seeing how Alaskan Nats scale or that their team went for a six caravel rush vs Don_Artie's team would have been pretty significant information.

I smell a Royal Clan conspiracy! On a more serious note, I appreciate the effort the organizers put in but I think its clear the rules need to be more clearly defined and organizers should recluse themselves from playing/separate organizing and playing better.

Also in my personal opinion you shouldn't sign up to a tourney if you only have time to play a couple hours once a week, seeing as even the preliminary rounds' scheduling was a mess.
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Re: 3v3 Tournament Hosted by RøyaL Clan

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Post by don_artie »

I don't know how serious you guys are or just sorta creating drama for fun or whatever, but it does feel like some overreacting is going on. Kaisters team had nobody show up on time, 2 of them were 1 hour later and the third was 2 hours late. This shoulda just been resolved into a DQ imo, but they still even had a chance to play. Then for my series against tad I played bad, lost tc and dock (port) to 6 caravel rush and game was over on the spot. I just said they can show it if they want but I dont think it's stream worthy, it wasnt some big conspiracy trying to keep strats secret or whatever else. Unless someone truely feels unjustly threated still, it would be nice to stop poking around these subjects. I can assure you there is good people with the right intentions working on this tourney and they dont deserve the drama they're getting. It would be nice to turn this into something fun again and leave the bs behind
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Re: 3v3 Tournament Hosted by RøyaL Clan

Post by bobabu »

Narida wrote:Well since there is so much drama I might as well add some: Bobabu was indeed around 15 minutes late to our (team Zannerres) game which I think is still just about acceptable.

What annoyed me more was that TAD floated the idea of Jailed subbing for their third pick which seemed awfully convenient, along with other things such as telling Zannere that he was sick of his team and that we should "2-0 them already" even though it was pretty clear that they were well prepared.
Also TAD was asking us to "just pick first" when it came to map bans and was implying that which server we play on makes no difference although I am pretty sure it does?
None of these things are big deal but I think it is terrible etiquette.

Finally I even though our team happened to benefit from this as well, I think either none or probably better all the recs of the preliminary rounds should be made available because seeing how Alaskan Nats scale or that their team went for a six caravel rush vs Don_Artie's team would have been pretty significant information.

I smell a Royal Clan conspiracy! On a more serious note, I appreciate the effort the organizers put in but I think its clear the rules need to be more clearly defined and organizers should recluse themselves from playing/separate organizing and playing better.

Also in my personal opinion you shouldn't sign up to a tourney if you only have time to play a couple hours once a week, seeing as even the preliminary rounds' scheduling was a mess.
I can only say something about the replays. We didn't record the first game against their team. But I did manage to save the game regardless. The reason why the games weren't uploaded is that one of the game files was over 8mb. Discord doesn't allow me to send files over 8mb. So I ended up sending Tad one game file through Discord and then later said I would send him the second game file with some other method. Later I forgot about it and didn't send it to him at all. At this point, we just left it with that. So it's my fault that they weren't uploaded and not Tads. But it was not intentional or to hide a strat. Tbh the strats weren't well prepared. Besides the caravel timing, everything else is just kind of our playstyle. Carp going nats is pretty standard for him.
As for the rest, Tad didn't tell me what he told Zanerre so I can't comment on that.
I think the server does matter for sure and I remember we even asked Wicked's team to switch servers. I don't think it would be game-changing though. Especially around the ranks we are playing and in a team game where communication is more important than mini laggs.
Tad isn't a bad guy. He was just annoyed that always someone wasn't on time and he always was. In the first series, our opponents were late and in the second it was me. I understand that it is annoying on top of having all the administrative work which is worth way more than the money pot they also have to wait for the players to show up. There's no conspiracy and it's nice that there are still people organizing these kinds of 3vs3 tournaments where all kinds of players get to play. But I think everybody has to realise that it's extremely difficult to get 6 players to be around at the same time. And for all these 6 players Age of Empires 3 is probably not at the top of the list. When I signed up for the tournament I had an almost empty calendar but still, stuff just keeps popping up and more often than not I had to ask for a reschedule. So even with an empty schedule, it can happen that you can't make it. So the argument you shouldn't sign up if you have no time isn't a good one. In jaileds tournament, it worked better as there were stand-ins.
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Re: 3v3 Tournament Hosted by RøyaL Clan

Post by I_HaRRiiSoN_I »

Holy shit guys it's just a game at the end of the day
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Re: 3v3 Tournament Hosted by RøyaL Clan

Post by Cleters »

Shhh stop ruining our daily drama Harriison.



So yeah we were talking about people being late, that's very rude.

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Re: 3v3 Tournament Hosted by RøyaL Clan

Post by comradecommissar »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:
gibson wrote:Good example of why tourney admins shouldnt be playing in the tourney tbh
Agreed. I've always made it a personal rule to recuse myself from any admin decisions (in)directly involving myself and to forfeit when a conflict arises. Thus far I think I've only had to apply that rule once and forfeit when my opponent and I had a scheduling conflict that would've required an admin decision. Even if I would recuse myself in that situation, it would still be unfair to the other tournament admins to put them in that situation where their biases are evident. In EPL, I chose not to sign up at all because it would be impossible to administer and play at the same time. In these situations, it's better to be safe than sorry to uphold the veil of impartiality.
okay. you're amazing.
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Re: 3v3 Tournament Hosted by RøyaL Clan

Post by CaRp »

Narida wrote: Finally I even though our team happened to benefit from this as well, I think either none or probably better all the recs of the preliminary rounds should be made available because seeing how Alaskan Nats scale or that their team went for a six caravel rush vs Don_Artie's team would have been pretty significant information.
eh?? I do not agree with this, sending 6 caravels is not something new or secret, it is very standard in team games especially when you play vs Portuguese. The same thing happens with natives, it's my style of the game, it's nothing new.
I can understand your other points in this discussion, but adding this to your list of accusations makes no sense.

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