Empire Wars in AoE3?

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Empire Wars in AoE3?

Post by n0el »

For those who aren't aware, in DE for age2, they implemented a new game mode called Empire Wars. Essentially you bypass the early part of the game and start with a functioning economy in age2 which allows you to begin aggression immediately. Here is a short video from the Age channel explaining the basics:
https://www.ageofempires.com/games/aoeiide/empire-wars/

There has also been a series of S tier tournaments hosted by Red Bull that were run exclusively on this game mode, and for a casual fan and even die hard fans have been very fun to watch. You can see them and find the VODs on the tournament pages on liquipedia: https://liquipedia.net/ageofempires/Red_Bull_Wololo/3

The background being laid, what could a similar game mode look like for AoE3?

You could follow the formula laid out in Age 2 and modify it for 3 quite easily. Start with X villagers, houses needed to cover the existing population, a military building, a market, a church? Also it would probably make sense to start with a shipment available or XP crates on the ground to gather for a shipment. The maps would need some work in terms of treasures mostly as the smaller treasures would have even less value, so adding in some fixed higher tier treasures would be ideal to give the players some choices to make with their initial armies.

I personally find the idea of increasing the pace of the game and think that it would also draw in some new players who are interested in such a game mode.
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Re: Empire Wars in AoE3?

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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I don't think it's interesting for aoe3.

We tried that in Smackdowns with stuffs like you start with a fort, a factory or +10v, but some civs are simply stronger than some others, and we'd see the same 3-4 civs every game.
Besides, early game in aoe2 takes forever, in aoe3 you're age 3 at 10 min most of the time, and at 20 min the game is over. We'd just get 8 min games.
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Re: Empire Wars in AoE3?

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Post by RefluxSemantic »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:I don't think it's interesting for aoe3.

We tried that in Smackdowns with stuffs like you start with a fort, a factory or +10v, but some civs are simply stronger than some others, and we'd see the same 3-4 civs every game.
Besides, early game in aoe2 takes forever, in aoe3 you're age 3 at 10 min most of the time, and at 20 min the game is over. We'd just get 8 min games.
I feel like aoe3's general pacing is naturally a bit better than for aoe2. You have the first 2-3 minutes to get in the mindset, then the next 5-10 minutes are the strategical midgame and then the 'lategame' happens. It honestly feels pretty great to me. The start could be a minute or so shorter I suppose.
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Re: Empire Wars in AoE3?

Post by n0el »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:I don't think it's interesting for aoe3.

We tried that in Smackdowns with stuffs like you start with a fort, a factory or +10v, but some civs are simply stronger than some others, and we'd see the same 3-4 civs every game.
Besides, early game in aoe2 takes forever, in aoe3 you're age 3 at 10 min most of the time, and at 20 min the game is over. We'd just get 8 min games.
smackdowns weren't balanced though, this mode could be balanced by civilization in terms of what eco they start with
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Re: Empire Wars in AoE3?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

n0el wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:I don't think it's interesting for aoe3.

We tried that in Smackdowns with stuffs like you start with a fort, a factory or +10v, but some civs are simply stronger than some others, and we'd see the same 3-4 civs every game.
Besides, early game in aoe2 takes forever, in aoe3 you're age 3 at 10 min most of the time, and at 20 min the game is over. We'd just get 8 min games.
smackdowns weren't balanced though, this mode could be balanced by civilization in terms of what eco they start with
Then you'd have to spend 6 months to have a half balanced game mode to save 4 minutes in the end. Is it worth it ?
If you do like Starcraft II and change the game forever like LOTV did, then arguably yes (though I highly doubt the Microsoft team is capable of doing that), but for just one tourney it sounds like a massive waste of time.
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Re: Empire Wars in AoE3?

Post by n0el »

idk, im not a developer
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Re: Empire Wars in AoE3?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

n0el wrote:idk, im not a developer
What does it have to do with developing ?
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Re: Empire Wars in AoE3?

Post by n0el »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
n0el wrote:idk, im not a developer
What does it have to do with developing ?
who else would do that work?

i see you added to your post... It is a standalone mode, not just a one tournament thing.
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Re: Empire Wars in AoE3?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

n0el wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
n0el wrote:idk, im not a developer
What does it have to do with developing ?
who else would do that work?

i see you added to your post... It is a standalone mode, not just a one tournament thing.
Because developing it is obviously not the hard part. The hard part is to have a balanced game. It took a few years to balance from the RE, it would be harder starting from a whole new game mode.
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Re: Empire Wars in AoE3?

Post by n0el »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
n0el wrote:
Show hidden quotes
who else would do that work?

i see you added to your post... It is a standalone mode, not just a one tournament thing.
Because developing it is obviously not the hard part. The hard part is to have a balanced game. It took a few years to balance from the RE, it would be harder starting from a whole new game mode.
i'm including the people doing the balance as the dev team, since they all work for the company that develops the game
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Re: Empire Wars in AoE3?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Ah ok. Then seeing the frequency and the quality of the DE updates, I'm not very optimistic.
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Re: Empire Wars in AoE3?

Post by vividlyplain »

@n0el you could do this on a map using triggers and such like the blitz treaty maps
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Re: Empire Wars in AoE3?

Post by Goodspeed »

I'm not the biggest fan of EW because it significantly lowers build diversity, but it does feel more natural for AoE3 because discovery age is even more useless than AoE2's dark age. Skipping the first age makes sense when the only variable in it is treasure gathering, which is unbalanced by design and would actually become a whole lot more interesting with military units involved.

But you still run into the problem of hurting build diversity. Starting the game in colonial with military infrastructure and a certain amount of resources in the bank kind of forces you into a certain build. You're not going to switch to an FF if the enemy is going to have huss in your base in 1 min, for example. Not using your military building just means you're stuck with an inefficient build and it would likely not be viable.
Most civs make meaningful choices when it comes to vill allocation and whether to build a TP and/or market in transition to colonial. You would be removing those choices.

Skipping the first 3 min however, and starting the game on the way to colonial age, could work. For AoE2 that wouldn't really work either because by then you've already made meaningful strategic choices like how many vills to age up with, how many vills to put on wood in the later stages of dark age, how many (if any) farms to build in dark age, when and where to start building walls etc.
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Re: Empire Wars in AoE3?

Post by aaryngend »

Goodspeed wrote:I'm not the biggest fan of EW because it significantly lowers build diversity, but it does feel more natural for AoE3 because discovery age is even more useless than AoE2's dark age. Skipping the first age makes sense when the only variable in it is treasure gathering, which is unbalanced by design and would actually become a whole lot more interesting with military units involved.
That was the point of Empire Wars to begin with. The devs wanted a gamemode which isn't as long-winded as the vanilla Random Map mode while still retaining everything that makes the game.
You get a less complicated game mode which is quite similar to the standard mode while jumping right into action. Perfect for beginners.

Seeing as how aoe3 is a faster game to begin with (you jump into action pretty quickly), we don't really need an even faster start :chinese:
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Re: Empire Wars in AoE3?

Post by Goodspeed »

aaryngend wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:I'm not the biggest fan of EW because it significantly lowers build diversity, but it does feel more natural for AoE3 because discovery age is even more useless than AoE2's dark age. Skipping the first age makes sense when the only variable in it is treasure gathering, which is unbalanced by design and would actually become a whole lot more interesting with military units involved.
That was the point of Empire Wars to begin with. The devs wanted a gamemode which isn't as long-winded as the vanilla Random Map mode while still retaining everything that makes the game.
Removing build diversity is not retaining everything that makes the game imo. It's a pretty important part of an RTS game's strategic depth.
aaryngend wrote:Seeing as how aoe3 is a faster game to begin with (you jump into action pretty quickly), we don't really need an even faster start :chinese:
Idk what your definition of "quick" is but AoE3 does not start quickly compared to other RTS. It's at least 5 minutes until something meaningful happens, and in most games more than that. It's actually the same in AoE2.
AoE3 is fast paced only from then on; games are almost always decided before 20 minutes whereas in AoE2 they often drag on beyond that. But it does not start quickly. The casters invariably have 5+ minutes to fill and playing out discovery age is a drag (imo). Something like EW can work here, just don't remove strategic choices like the age up politician and transition vill allocation and you're good to go.
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Re: Empire Wars in AoE3?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Well, they can fill these 5 min with treasures. In aoe2 it's just macro.
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Re: Empire Wars in AoE3?

Post by Goodspeed »

I don't personally find players picking up treasures the most meaningful or exciting events, but perhaps that's just me losing my AoE3 spirit. Aruably it's the AoE3 way to get hyped about shit like that. Casters certainly manage, last I checked.
At any rate they are not strategic choices to talk about. At most, one can talk about the paths taken by scouts, but that's not the most interesting subject either and it applies to AoE2 as well. Ultimately you're waiting for the players to make real choices, and it's the same in AoE2 and every other RTS. It's just that, in AoEX, you're waiting a bit longer than in say SC2.
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Re: Empire Wars in AoE3?

Post by Le Hussard sur le toit »

Goodspeed wrote:I'm not the biggest fan of EW because it significantly lowers build diversity, but it does feel more natural for AoE3 because discovery age is even more useless than AoE2's dark age. Skipping the first age makes sense when the only variable in it is treasure gathering, which is unbalanced by design and would actually become a whole lot more interesting with military units involved.

But you still run into the problem of hurting build diversity. Starting the game in colonial with military infrastructure and a certain amount of resources in the bank kind of forces you into a certain build. You're not going to switch to an FF if the enemy is going to have huss in your base in 1 min, for example. Not using your military building just means you're stuck with an inefficient build and it would likely not be viable.
Most civs make meaningful choices when it comes to vill allocation and whether to build a TP and/or market in transition to colonial. You would be removing those choices.

Skipping the first 3 min however, and starting the game on the way to colonial age, could work. For AoE2 that wouldn't really work either because by then you've already made meaningful strategic choices like how many vills to age up with, how many vills to put on wood in the later stages of dark age, how many (if any) farms to build in dark age, when and where to start building walls etc.
Strange discourse from the author of the case for Virginia Company...

Now less make a list of significant age 1 choices:
Germany has going for market or TP depending on treasures.
France has 12/10 or 13/20 with either market or TP.
Portugal has the choice between eco theory, schooner, ATP, and saving the shipment for age 2, while deciding between 10/10 and 12/20 age up.
Spain has ATP or standard play.
Russia age with 14 or 17 vills.
Brits has 3vills, 3 vills+VC or VC.

Dutch and Otto do pretty much the same thing in every map and MU.

Native civs must decide between fast age and slow age, Iro can go for a dock and Aztecs for schooner on some maps/MU, but overall not much diversity.

Japan can chose between 300w, 2 vills, HK and 3 boats. China has 2 village and village+TP. India can 10/10 or age slower and decide if they go Agra in base or in the centre.

Inca can go for wood up, 2 lamas or 300w.

That only cover the meaningful choices. But RTS is not only about choices, it is also about execution. A good age 1 macro and good treasure micro really changes the course of the game and has not much to do with luck.
Now I'm not going to say age 1 play is action packed, but it's really an important and significant part of the game...
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Re: Empire Wars in AoE3?

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Post by deleted_user »

Age 1 is a good time to talk about players, player playstyles, the civ MU, possible strats from either player such that: the actual in-game decisions have something to be compared to for viewers that aren't pro. It's kind of like how agadmator doesn't skip the first 12 moves, and points out candidate moves/ideas in a position, so dumbasses like myself can grasp what's going on. Context-building to facilitate informed viewing.

This can probably be condensed, and age 1 probably takes too long, but it serves some purposes.
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Re: Empire Wars in AoE3?

Post by Goodspeed »

Le Hussard sur le toit wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:I'm not the biggest fan of EW because it significantly lowers build diversity, but it does feel more natural for AoE3 because discovery age is even more useless than AoE2's dark age. Skipping the first age makes sense when the only variable in it is treasure gathering, which is unbalanced by design and would actually become a whole lot more interesting with military units involved.

But you still run into the problem of hurting build diversity. Starting the game in colonial with military infrastructure and a certain amount of resources in the bank kind of forces you into a certain build. You're not going to switch to an FF if the enemy is going to have huss in your base in 1 min, for example. Not using your military building just means you're stuck with an inefficient build and it would likely not be viable.
Most civs make meaningful choices when it comes to vill allocation and whether to build a TP and/or market in transition to colonial. You would be removing those choices.

Skipping the first 3 min however, and starting the game on the way to colonial age, could work. For AoE2 that wouldn't really work either because by then you've already made meaningful strategic choices like how many vills to age up with, how many vills to put on wood in the later stages of dark age, how many (if any) farms to build in dark age, when and where to start building walls etc.
Strange discourse from the author of the case for Virginia Company...

Now less make a list of significant age 1 choices:
Germany has going for market or TP depending on treasures.
....
It would remove some choices but I don't think it would necessarily be a net loss. Market vs TP is still a choice, just a bit later. VC would still be viable, the only real problem as far as I can see is wonder placement. Maybe start the game at 2:30, although there's arguably not much of a point if you're going that far back I guess. Like I said, I'm not a fan of EW.
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Re: Empire Wars in AoE3?

Post by WickedCossack »

The civ diversity problem would be magnified even more from aoe2 to aoe3 with this mode, can't really do it without further civ changes.
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Re: Empire Wars in AoE3?

Post by aaryngend »

Goodspeed wrote:Removing build diversity is not retaining everything that makes the game imo. It's a pretty important part of an RTS game's strategic depth.
Not for beginners who don't want to dive in too deep. Empire Wars fills this void perfectly.
Goodspeed wrote:But it does not start quickly. The casters invariably have 5+ minutes to fill and playing out discovery age is a drag (imo).
It's mostly 4 minutes and a little more until action truly starts, so while there is some idle time before aoe3 gets going, it gets going for good. Aoe2 is even slower (close to 7mins in realtime to hit feudal age I think?) and doesn't pick up as fast after the early game or in the mid game either.
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Re: Empire Wars in AoE3?

Post by Goodspeed »

WickedCossack wrote:The civ diversity problem would be magnified even more from aoe2 to aoe3 with this mode, can't really do it without further civ changes.
It's really easy to tweak balance though, by simply changing how many res the civs start with.
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Re: Empire Wars in AoE3?

Post by drsingh »

Just need to play on a new map with Deccan + crates. Market, saloon, mill, 2 houses pre built to give a city feel. 3 extra starting villagers. First shipment ready. Shortening age 1 further. And allowing new strategies to work because of pre built buildings.. Also adjusting the treasures to be higher tier.
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Re: Empire Wars in AoE3?

Post by harcha »

Just play DM
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