Update 14825

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Argentina Jotunir
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Re: Update 14825

Post by Jotunir »

Black_Duck wrote:
Jotunir wrote:
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Arguing with a fool only proves there are two. You should calm down.
Where’s the argument? Pretty sure he was just outing you for being a massive cunt
I will not go down to his or your level. Be polite.
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Latvia harcha
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Re: Update 14825

Post by harcha »

lol too late for that goal
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Great Britain I_HaRRiiSoN_I
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Re: Update 14825

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Post by I_HaRRiiSoN_I »

@Jotunir @Black_Duck @anyone else
Just leave it and not respond to each other its that simple. This thread is discussing about update 14825 not slagging each other off. If you really want to show each other your feelings of admiration and love then send each other some private messages, we dont need to see this bickering here
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Latvia harcha
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Re: Update 14825

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Post by harcha »

@I_HaRRiiSoN_I for mod
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Argentina Jotunir
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Re: Update 14825

Post by Jotunir »

harcha wrote:lol too late for that goal
Is that so?
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Argentina Jets
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Re: Update 14825

Post by Jets »

Le Hussard sur le toit wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:because hand infantry is pretty irrelevant...
I agree obviously, but free advanced arsenal is probably relevant.
You can pretty much focus on infantry massing and upgrading them, until they're being countered you already have upgraded hussars ready to be trained.

Still, the whole point of the caroleans is being missed, the charge has little relevance now, I've seen more ppl use it to escape rather than charging in to battle. Remove the cooldown, take away those ranged multipliers and range cards, just standarize the caroleans to a normal musk with higher melee dmg and a better melee mode, don't forget it also has a 30% MR. All those traits are pretty fair to their cost.
The 4.25 speed is just weird compared to other units, also the 2.5 ROF. Come on, you can make Sweden a powerful musk civ combined with mercs. No other civ has that sinergy.
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Re: Update 14825

Post by Le Hussard sur le toit »

Jets wrote:
Le Hussard sur le toit wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:because hand infantry is pretty irrelevant...
I agree obviously, but free advanced arsenal is probably relevant.
You can pretty much focus on infantry massing and upgrading them, until they're being countered you already have upgraded hussars ready to be trained.
Upgrades for pikes are irrelevant (well, they are not now that Sweden can go bow pikes but they where).
ESOC : came for the game, stayed for the drama.
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Tuvalu gibson
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Re: Update 14825

Post by gibson »

Jotunir wrote: I will not go down to his or your level. Be polite.
Jotunir wrote: I love the fact that they release updates without ever testing them. It just shows how inept/unskilled/lazy they are.

:hmm: :hmm:
Australia PatrickLFC
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Re: Update 14825

Post by PatrickLFC »

Jets wrote:
Le Hussard sur le toit wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:because hand infantry is pretty irrelevant...
I agree obviously, but free advanced arsenal is probably relevant.
You can pretty much focus on infantry massing and upgrading them, until they're being countered you already have upgraded hussars ready to be trained.

Still, the whole point of the caroleans is being missed, the charge has little relevance now, I've seen more ppl use it to escape rather than charging in to battle. Remove the cooldown, take away those ranged multipliers and range cards, just standarize the caroleans to a normal musk with higher melee dmg and a better melee mode, don't forget it also has a 30% MR. All those traits are pretty fair to their cost.
The 4.25 speed is just weird compared to other units, also the 2.5 ROF. Come on, you can make Sweden a powerful musk civ combined with mercs. No other civ has that sinergy.
Not sure I like the argument that no other civ has this, given the point of different civs are different strengths, weaknesses and promoting variety. I don't think the concept for Sweden is bad but it definitely sounds like the latest patch has gone too far with the buffs
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Argentina Jotunir
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Re: Update 14825

Post by Jotunir »

I_HaRRiiSoN_I wrote:@Jotunir @Black_Duck @anyone else
Just leave it and not respond to each other its that simple. This thread is discussing about update 14825 not slagging each other off. If you really want to show each other your feelings of admiration and love then send each other some private messages, we dont need to see this bickering here
@gibson , @I_HaRRiiSoN_I is right, we have the power to end this madness. As for the patch, it was sloppy work, there is no excuse for that. I won't repent for expressing my honest opinion.
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Great Britain Black_Duck
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Re: Update 14825

Post by Black_Duck »

Jotunir wrote:
I_HaRRiiSoN_I wrote:@Jotunir @Black_Duck @anyone else
Just leave it and not respond to each other its that simple. This thread is discussing about update 14825 not slagging each other off. If you really want to show each other your feelings of admiration and love then send each other some private messages, we dont need to see this bickering here
@gibson , @I_HaRRiiSoN_I is right, I won't repent for expressing my honest opinion.
I’ll do the same
Challenged_Macro wrote: Respect Mussolini guys,if hes triggered there is always a reason.
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Kiribati princeofcarthage
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Re: Update 14825

Post by princeofcarthage »

Sigh, these kids.
Fine line to something great is a strange change.
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Tuvalu gibson
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Re: Update 14825

Post by gibson »

Jotunir wrote:
I_HaRRiiSoN_I wrote:@Jotunir @Black_Duck @anyone else
Just leave it and not respond to each other its that simple. This thread is discussing about update 14825 not slagging each other off. If you really want to show each other your feelings of admiration and love then send each other some private messages, we dont need to see this bickering here
@gibson , @I_HaRRiiSoN_I is right, we have the power to end this madness. As for the patch, it was sloppy work, there is no excuse for that. I won't repent for expressing my honest opinion.
So stop insulting people and than acting all high and mighty when you get insulted. Its even worse cause you're insulting people who are actively trying to make the game better when you have 0 clue of anything thats happening. Just fuck off already.
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Argentina Jotunir
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Re: Update 14825

Post by Jotunir »

gibson wrote:
Jotunir wrote:
I_HaRRiiSoN_I wrote:@Jotunir @Black_Duck @anyone else
Just leave it and not respond to each other its that simple. This thread is discussing about update 14825 not slagging each other off. If you really want to show each other your feelings of admiration and love then send each other some private messages, we dont need to see this bickering here
@gibson , @I_HaRRiiSoN_I is right, we have the power to end this madness. As for the patch, it was sloppy work, there is no excuse for that. I won't repent for expressing my honest opinion.
So stop insulting people and than acting all high and mighty when you get insulted. Its even worse cause you're insulting people who are actively trying to make the game better when you have 0 clue of anything thats happening. Just fuck off already.
I am tired of your insults. Fuck off you too.
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Great Britain I_HaRRiiSoN_I
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Re: Update 14825

Post by I_HaRRiiSoN_I »

guys you've said your parting well wishes, given each other a hug and a kiss on the cheek.

Now leave it.
Macau firstaim
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Re: Update 14825

Post by firstaim »

Idk why there are still somebody saying Drongo's record can't prove anything about the balance, sure this is already a big problem.

We all know that Kaiser skill is much better than Drongo, and German is also not bottom tier in most of player's consideration.

And now, because especially Torp OP bonus (hard to destroy, unraidble and many bonus many guys already complained a lot), with Sweden keep getting buff in age2 in their main weakness age, finally cause this game happened.
An example from the record at final battle Drongo lost most of his vils, and the beginning of the game the torps helped him to protect from uhlans raiding, safely turtled in the base with strong eco.
This makes even a low level player can beat a higher level player.
Australia JKProwler
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Re: Update 14825

Post by JKProwler »

I'm still gonna reserve my judgement on the newly buffed Swedes.

What I understand is the recently changed torps only provide an extra 200 food from 500 food the previous patch. However you now pretty much get a bigger window to send the blue berry card (pretty much no more time limit).

But that still gets u a limited window before all the initial berry and blue berry (400 food in total) to run out.

Also to get that max torp eco, swedes will have to send several shipments, dominion, 700 wood and blue berry..and probably with no tp to get a faster age up...or with tp but it clicking up at 3:30...that's no different to brit vc boom which is vulnerable to early pressure....but I think Swedes is more vulnerable.

Also I think Swedes eco is slower to take off than brits but probably can surpass it mid game if left unchecked.

Also not sure how blackberries card synergises optimally since ur shipping an eco vs a military card in age 3 especially when ur under pressure and by that stage ur blue berries would be running out from ur torps.

Also with the nerfed Iron works, I'm not sure if it's worth even full out attacking torps around mines first (This mindset is carried over from previous version of swedes) but rather just go all out more on home base and make them ship military units rather than eco cards and eventually u can just overwhelm them since the Swedes eco probably will never really take off.

Again I could be completely wrong, but just stating my observations...again still too early to tell.

Although atm they do seem quite op cause ur forced to play against them in one way, and that is to rush since there unchecked mid game eco is quite strong.
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Sweden Aussie_Drongo
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Re: Update 14825

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Post by Aussie_Drongo »

I'd hate to think that the most recent game I played vs Kaiser would be viewed in a vacuum. I'll put the following thoughts out there, and posit that I would have beaten him prior to the most recent patch also:
  1. Germany has always been a very favourable match up for Sweden, even with the nerfs, as they do not prioritise a siege unit before going semi FF (Japan with Ashigaru, French with musket etc) and subsequently I can reach max torps without any significant pressure or risk to torp numbers.
  2. The build that I used is a timing attack specifically designed to hit before the German Cav Combat power spike hits.
  3. I did not exploit / use any buffs that Sweden received other than the following things: Putting 5 torps on a single coin mine rather than 4 which was not possible in the previous patch. Creating a second torp in the first age rather than a TP (as the berry bush will last 10:00 now instead of 6:15) and having that torp receive a blueberry bush rather than no blueberry bush at all (essentially, I had 20 BB torps rather than 19 BB torps).
I played an incredibly fortunate game, picking up an 80 wood treasure and an 80 food treasure without any enemy pressure, I had amazing wood lines and guaranteed torp positions that ensured 0.35 wood trickle rate on all my early torps. I also defended all early pressure with my caroleans and didn't lose any early villagers at all (at least until 13+ minutes, by which stage the game was well and truly over).

I also had a great map, as the natural choke points mean I can place my torps for line of sight and can ensure that all incoming raids are taken care of without the loss of villagers.

While Kaiser was able to take out 2 torps in the early game, and 7 caroleans, he lost 4 Uhlans, and while it may seem like a fair trade for him, it is far from it, as my economy out-scales his significantly whereas he relies on his larger shipments, so those caroleans and torps are easily replaced, whereas that is 4 Uhlans from his mass that he has lost forever.

Despite the Carolean nerf to ranged cavalry and scouting my double stable, he sent jaegers instead of black riders. Then due to being firstly caught out of position in the first fight, and having no Uhlans in the second fight, the final fight was very one sided.

The only relevant changes in the patch notes to this game were:

Code: Select all

Somewhat relaxed the Torp’s placement restrictions and improved the accuracy of the visible ring indicating the collection radius. These changes will comfortably allow up to 6 Torps to gather from a single Mine—which was possible before the previous game update, but is now much easier.

Increased the amount of food in spawned Berry Bushes from 125 â–¶ 200 food.
That's it.
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Puerto Rico Pzlaterr
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Re: Update 14825

Post by Pzlaterr »

you forgot point 4, intentionally picked and played a civ for lamers
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Re: Update 14825

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Post by princeofkabul »

Aussie_Drongo wrote:I'd hate to think that the most recent game I played vs Kaiser would be viewed in a vacuum. I'll put the following thoughts out there, and posit that I would have beaten him prior to the most recent patch also:
  1. Germany has always been a very favourable match up for Sweden, even with the nerfs, as they do not prioritise a siege unit before going semi FF (Japan with Ashigaru, French with musket etc) and subsequently I can reach max torps without any significant pressure or risk to torp numbers.
  2. The build that I used is a timing attack specifically designed to hit before the German Cav Combat power spike hits.
  3. I did not exploit / use any buffs that Sweden received other than the following things: Putting 5 torps on a single coin mine rather than 4 which was not possible in the previous patch. Creating a second torp in the first age rather than a TP (as the berry bush will last 10:00 now instead of 6:15) and having that torp receive a blueberry bush rather than no blueberry bush at all (essentially, I had 20 BB torps rather than 19 BB torps).
I played an incredibly fortunate game, picking up an 80 wood treasure and an 80 food treasure without any enemy pressure, I had amazing wood lines and guaranteed torp positions that ensured 0.35 wood trickle rate on all my early torps. I also defended all early pressure with my caroleans and didn't lose any early villagers at all (at least until 13+ minutes, by which stage the game was well and truly over).

I also had a great map, as the natural choke points mean I can place my torps for line of sight and can ensure that all incoming raids are taken care of without the loss of villagers.

While Kaiser was able to take out 2 torps in the early game, and 7 caroleans, he lost 4 Uhlans, and while it may seem like a fair trade for him, it is far from it, as my economy out-scales his significantly whereas he relies on his larger shipments, so those caroleans and torps are easily replaced, whereas that is 4 Uhlans from his mass that he has lost forever.

Despite the Carolean nerf to ranged cavalry and scouting my double stable, he sent jaegers instead of black riders. Then due to being firstly caught out of position in the first fight, and having no Uhlans in the second fight, the final fight was very one sided.

The only relevant changes in the patch notes to this game were:

Code: Select all

Somewhat relaxed the Torp’s placement restrictions and improved the accuracy of the visible ring indicating the collection radius. These changes will comfortably allow up to 6 Torps to gather from a single Mine—which was possible before the previous game update, but is now much easier.

Increased the amount of food in spawned Berry Bushes from 125 â–¶ 200 food.
That's it.
Need to rewatch that game. Anyway take pride in your work. Kaiser's a great player.
Chairman of Washed Up clan
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Great Britain I_HaRRiiSoN_I
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Re: Update 14825

Post by I_HaRRiiSoN_I »

Was a well played game, the sheer amount of resource income and resource discrepancies where map control was not needed is concerning for the future gameplay though
Australia JKProwler
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Re: Update 14825

Post by JKProwler »

I_HaRRiiSoN_I wrote:Was a well played game, the sheer amount of resource income and resource discrepancies where map control was not needed is concerning for the future gameplay though
I feel the same way when I lose to Japan, Inca and dutch
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Re: Update 14825

Post by Astaroth »

JKProwler wrote:
I_HaRRiiSoN_I wrote:Was a well played game, the sheer amount of resource income and resource discrepancies where map control was not needed is concerning for the future gameplay though
I feel the same way when I lose to Japan, Inca and dutch
Civs just work differently from each other. Some civs have extremely strong "scaling" (e.g. Japan/Sweden) or a crazy timing push/death ball (e.g. Otto FF/China FF) and require specific good counter strats to beat.

Other civs are a bit more "standard", so their strength and scaling doesn't change that much during the game (e.g. French - although of course they still have strong timings, strong lategame etc.).

To put it differently: if you let some civs get away with their gameplan, they will punish you for it hard. However, in contrast, a good counter build or strategy also punishes them more harshly than other civs.
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Great Britain I_HaRRiiSoN_I
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Re: Update 14825

Post by I_HaRRiiSoN_I »

very good points, the problem is is that when you start looking into the sweden vs japan, inca, dutch matchups (which we dont know yet) it will be useful to see how it ranks there. A lot of the lower ladder view japan as the most OP thing in existence (opinion not fact) but if it turns out that sweden now do decently vs japan and destroy inca & dutch (just speculating) then questions may arise of whether the buffs were over done instead of "slowly turning a dial" of civ bonuses/strengths. The lack of time is the biggest factor at the moment.
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Re: Update 14825

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Post by Kaiserklein »

Obviously I made some mistakes in that game (though I didn't scout the double stable so I couldn't know about the huss cheese). But the point is that civ is able to lose a couple buildings and some units, apply absolutely zero pressure to germany, letting them get away with a cav semi and free age up, etc. And just mass age 2 units and outmass like crazy, at the point of the game where germany is supposedly strongest, that is early fortress.
So yeah if I had BR I would have maybe been fine, but you can also imagine sweden could easily make 10 less huss there and age up, with still a huge mass and insane eco. Then get jaegers or falcs. I don't see how I would have been able to win the game from there.

And if you don't go cav semi, the alternatives are basically either bow/pike or naked FF. Bow/pike is even worse now that they can ship units from torps... I don't think you can really risk sieging a torp with shitty bow pike when they might just pop units on your face while flanking. Naked FF could work better, but in theory sweden can just adapt and FF themselves, and then I don't think germany has a window to really do any damage.

At the end of the day I just don't see how you beat a civ with such a ridiculous resources income, when you can't really siege their torps (cause extra HP and unit shipment potential), can't really hunt down the torp vils (they can build them in trees and get a fine income, gl finding that), can't really raid them because their few vils are in base, can't really rush into a tower (and they get units out reasonably fast too, and have many unit shipments, including cannons...), etc. And on top of their eco, their military also scales very well. Meanwhile they can easily raid you because unlike them you need to spread on the map, and caroleans are insane at raiding.

So basically with the average, standard civ, I don't think you can ever beat sweden. Even to have a somewhat close game, you have to outplay hard because making caroleans is so damn easy too. Can't make a mistake but they can make plenty
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..

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