Update 14825

[harcha]

yeah sweden should and probably will get scaled back soon

[NekoBerk]

I'm prepared to watch a lot of Sweden Mirrors in this next event haha

[Kawapasaka]

I think the only option Ger really has is tower rushing, which is still a long way off a guaranteed win ofc but yeah. The ability to contain is also hugely map dependent, like even more so than Japan kinda.

[CR_Joops]

I'm not speaking from a pro perspective here, but I think a decent nerf would maybe be torp HP. Or take the HP buff away from the HC card (dominions?). Age II they take absolutely forever to siege.

Further down the ladder Sweden's win % must be ridiculous - if even good players can't keep the torps from going up/staying up.

[InaLeto]

I'm just an average gamer, with a better buddy who mostly does team games. Whenever a thought occurred to us after a team game with a Swede as an opponent, it was always exactly this from us:

Can't make a mistake but they can make plenty

Of course, I also make a lot of mistakes, but the reason for my comment is this: With no other civilization do we have such a striking and recurring thought ...

[I_HaRRiiSoN_I]

I'm prepared to watch a lot of Sweden Mirrors in this next event haha

At least there is a rule of you can win with a civ once. Im not actually sure many players actually play sweden to a decent level. I think some players though are going to take a look into learning the civ as a tactical counter pick civ

[Astaroth]

@Kaiserklein good points.

I'm far from giving you advice, but just theorizing and judging from the games I've seen, I do agree that either a tower rush or a fast aggro FF would probably work best vs. this age2 mass Sweden build. He doesn't have a lot of stuff early age2 and 2 leathers die fast if he doesn't have mass or walls.

But yeah, Sweden can adapt and maybe semi themselves, Idk.

Still, overall I feel the civ needs to be explored more, by everyone. People are just too fast to call for either nerfs or buffs IMO.

[helln00]

I mean reading the patch notes , the only real buff that swedes got was in the timing flexibility for blueberries and crossbow. I would still want the whole max torp per mine to be 4 rather than 6, I think thats too much but otherwise like mechanically they are more similar to the last patch then the before their big nerf

[kevinitalien]

I mean reading the patch notes , the only real buff that swedes got was in the timing flexibility for blueberries and crossbow. I would still want the whole max torp per mine to be 4 rather than 6, I think thats too much but otherwise like mechanically they are more similar to the last patch then the before their big nerf

forgot you about the wood start, ok before it was not super strong because blueberry were not so strong, but now there is the wood start with normal blueberry

[helln00]

I mean reading the patch notes , the only real buff that swedes got was in the timing flexibility for blueberries and crossbow. I would still want the whole max torp per mine to be 4 rather than 6, I think thats too much but otherwise like mechanically they are more similar to the last patch then the before their big nerf

forgot you about the wood start, ok before it was not super strong because blueberry were not so strong, but now there is the wood start with normal blueberry

Hmm forgot about that. But even so, considering how the BO is now with starting 3 vil , dominion, 700 wood , blueberry. Is the wood start the thing that makes it OP here?

A simple fix I think is just to nerf the gather rate on blueberries. Or if we want to make their eco more fragile then remove the HP effect of Dominion.

[kevinitalien]

I mean reading the patch notes , the only real buff that swedes got was in the timing flexibility for blueberries and crossbow. I would still want the whole max torp per mine to be 4 rather than 6, I think thats too much but otherwise like mechanically they are more similar to the last patch then the before their big nerf

forgot you about the wood start, ok before it was not super strong because blueberry were not so strong, but now there is the wood start with normal blueberry

Hmm forgot about that. But even so, considering how the BO is now with starting 3 vil , dominion, 700 wood , blueberry. Is the wood start the thing that makes it OP here?

A simple fix I think is just to nerf the gather rate on blueberries. Or if we want to make their eco more fragile then remove the HP effect of Dominion.

I would say tp age 1 3v blueberry

[Kaiserklein]

Yeah wood start is big for this kind of house booming civ obviously.

I think the only option Ger really has is tower rushing, which is still a long way off a guaranteed win ofc but yeah. The ability to contain is also hugely map dependent, like even more so than Japan kinda.

Tower rushing is absolutely useless because of leather cannons / their own tower in base

@Kaiserklein good points.

I'm far from giving you advice, but just theorizing and judging from the games I've seen, I do agree that either a tower rush or a fast aggro FF would probably work best vs. this age2 mass Sweden build. He doesn't have a lot of stuff early age2 and 2 leathers die fast if he doesn't have mass or walls.

But yeah, Sweden can adapt and maybe semi themselves, Idk.

Still, overall I feel the civ needs to be explored more, by everyone. People are just too fast to call for either nerfs or buffs IMO.

2 leather cannons totally hold with mm or even just 10 caroleans. You can't go in his base because of the tower either, so you'll just be able to siege maybe 1 torp and then he has caroleans + cannons and your units are useless.
FF sounds decent, but again I think by the time you've crossed the map and started pushing their base, they're already fortress and hold you with falcs, jaegers or whatever, with way more eco. Not to mention you can't risk pushing out without WWs or BR (because if they're colo or even just made huss while aging you're fucked) and getting those just slows you down (1 min both for training WWs and sending mercs). As you can see in that game, I assumed he was aging, tried pushing without ranged cav and died.

[JKProwler]

I think the only option Ger really has is tower rushing, which is still a long way off a guaranteed win ofc but yeah. The ability to contain is also hugely map dependent, like even more so than Japan kinda.

This seems like a viable option for Germany.

The amount of units Germany can pop out before Swedes can get any meaningful mass will just be overwhelming if Swedes decide to do the max torps greedy build.

[bsound7]

i feel like the possibilty to fast age with this huge eco might be a problem as well. Where as this makes brit vulnerable for example, sweden can just fast age and they only need to upgrade caros and huss

[Kaiserklein]

Yeah fast age is an issue.

I think the only option Ger really has is tower rushing, which is still a long way off a guaranteed win ofc but yeah. The ability to contain is also hugely map dependent, like even more so than Japan kinda.

This seems like a viable option for Germany.

The amount of units Germany can pop out before Swedes can get any meaningful mass will just be overwhelming if Swedes decide to do the max torps greedy build.

They don't have to go max torp pop if you commit to tower rushing. It means you're shipping units first instead of 3 sw or 700w, and you delay (or even cut) your TP. Surely sweden can just slow down their boom a bit and hold, while still being ahead in eco, and with better units...

[NekoBerk]

This civ booms with houses, has a fast age up, they have age 2 cannons, they have xbows, their caroleans are better than regular musks, with so much gold they can spam cannons and mercs. I'm not an expert but this seems too much. Like... This civ is like even easier to use than ottos

[n0el]

The longer you slow down the torp boom though the worse blueberries becomes, so its a big plus for the opponent.

[gibson]

Just remove blueberrys or make it back to how it was last patch

[Cleters]

This civ booms with houses, has a fast age up, they have age 2 cannons, they have xbows, their caroleans are better than regular musks, with so much gold they can spam cannons and mercs. I'm not an expert but this seems too much. Like... This civ is like even easier to use than ottos

Kind of agree. I don't have much problem with swed (instead of inca for exemple ), they're not that hard to beat. But seeing things said that way, it seems a bit too much.

[Dolphincup]

Naked FF could work better, but in theory sweden can just adapt and FF themselves, and then I don't think germany has a window to really do any damage.

This is the only point I would argue against. Sweden opening vills has to send all of dominions, 700w, blueberries in age 2 or they're bad. If they open TP they might be able to squeeze a single Age III shipment in before you hit, but that's not adaptive. If they don't open TP, I don't think they can easily adapt to a naked FF. they're pretty stuck with their first 4-5 shipments.

[Garja]

Swedes don't have to send domions nor bluberries.
3v 700w irownwork build is still quite strong.

Also on an unrelated note I think Swedes now can do the bow pike FI right?

[n0el]

Swedes don't have to send domions nor bluberries.
3v 700w irownwork build is still quite strong.

Also on an unrelated note I think Swedes now can do the bow pike FI right?

they can't get guard crossbow, they didnt enable that tech when they added the units

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

Naked FF could work better, but in theory sweden can just adapt and FF themselves, and then I don't think germany has a window to really do any damage.

This is the only point I would argue against. Sweden opening vills has to send all of dominions, 700w, blueberries in age 2 or they're bad. If they open TP they might be able to squeeze a single Age III shipment in before you hit, but that's not adaptive. If they don't open TP, I don't think they can easily adapt to a naked FF. they're pretty stuck with their first 4-5 shipments.

Why would Sweden need to send 3 eco shipments in age 2 ? If Germany goes for a naked FF, Sweden eco will be ahead in any case and they can fast age (unlike brits).

[Dolphincup]

Sure Sweden doesn't NEED to ship dominion, 700w, blueberries, but this is the supposed OP build. I agree sweden is viable w/o blueberries or dominions, especially w/ 200f bushes, but they aren't going to have the same mass with the same timing if they skip a step.

edit: my previous post did say they'd be bad if skipping one of those shipments. overly dramatic on my part. I think sweden has many viable builds.

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

It's not the most OP build, it's the most greedy build. Brits don't send VC every game, Dutch don't go 5 bank semi-FF every game, Japanese don't go heavenly kami max pop every game. You have to adapt to your opponent civ.