Update 14825

[ocemilky]

Increase carolean cost seeing as they have such a good turtle with mm tower and leather cannon early, less spammable later. Even with just hp card they feel cheap, let alone with age 3 cards. Sweden has such a good food income early yet their musk are the cheapest food wise.

[Dolphincup]

It's not the most OP build, it's the most greedy build. Brits don't send VC every game, Dutch don't go 5 bank semi-FF every game, Japanese don't go heavenly kami max pop every game. You have to adapt to your opponent civ.

A key difference between sweden and brit, dutch, or japan is that sweden needs specific shipments to have a strong economy, and you can't ship them first. without either blueberries or ironworks, sweden's boom is lackluster. dutch can stop at 4 banks, and brits/japan can stop building houses at any time. That's adaptable. Sweden can't ship dominion and 700w, and then just skip blueberries and ironworks. So sweden's greedy builds, like the one Aussie did against Kaiser, are not very adaptable once they've been committed to.

[JKProwler]

Yeah fast age is an issue.

I think the only option Ger really has is tower rushing, which is still a long way off a guaranteed win ofc but yeah. The ability to contain is also hugely map dependent, like even more so than Japan kinda.

This seems like a viable option for Germany.

The amount of units Germany can pop out before Swedes can get any meaningful mass will just be overwhelming if Swedes decide to do the max torps greedy build.

They don't have to go max torp pop if you commit to tower rushing. It means you're shipping units first instead of 3 sw or 700w, and you delay (or even cut) your TP. Surely sweden can just slow down their boom a bit and hold, while still being ahead in eco, and with better units...

I don't know, but just give it a try. Certainly better doing tower rush than semi ff against Sweden (especially since most Sweden players go the greed build)

[arivus]

I think increasing the Carolean coin cost by 20 gold each could slow their turtling and massing carolean

[Aussie_Drongo]

If they increase the cost of the carolean by 20 coin I would only ever bow / pike / huss, into huss/hakka/jaeger.

The unit is absolutely terrible compared to, say, the Ashi (until it reaches fully upgraded age 3).

[arivus]

If they increase the cost of the carolean by 20 coin I would only ever bow / pike / huss, into huss/hakka/jaeger.

The unit is absolutely terrible compared to, say, the Ashi (until it reaches fully upgraded age 3).

How about if the cost is redistributed? From 60F 40C to 40F 60C or 50F 50C.

Ashi is something op that is dumb op. They got card, advance arsenal tech, unit boosting aura, and building boosting aura.

[Garja]

Caroleans are good for their cost, I don't see a reason to complain.

[Aussie_Drongo]

Main issue is that every musket outmatches them in age 2 (un-upgraded and especially upgraded), obviously we can't look at them in a vacuum, as Swedes have leather cannon, but if a cost increase or even a higher rate of coin to food, I suspect they trade way to poorly to even bother considering. I think they are fine as they are, and may need a bit of a nerf in late game but in the most recent patch I've only got to age 3 once, let alone age 4.

[harcha]

There are many other civs that have musks without upgrades.

Anyway I think nerfing their cost is only reasonable with the 3 range shipment.

I think blueberries are fine as they are, except they could be moved to age 2. Make it so that sweden has to chose between age 2 shipments, don't always let them have every eco and every military shipment in the deck. 4 military shipments for a euro civ is too good.

[helln00]

Main issue is that every musket outmatches them in age 2 (un-upgraded and especially upgraded), obviously we can't look at them in a vacuum, as Swedes have leather cannon, but if a cost increase or even a higher rate of coin to food, I suspect they trade way to poorly to even bother considering. I think they are fine as they are, and may need a bit of a nerf in late game but in the most recent patch I've only got to age 3 once, let alone age 4.

Are we accounting for the free advanced arsenal? in a drawn out age 2, all those available upgrades could come into play, considering that other civs dont have access to the arsenal until age 3 and even then only have access to Infantry breastplate and socket bayonet while Sweden have also additional attack, HP and speed upgrade.

[Hazza54321]

Nerfing caro cost seems like the weirdest and most unnecessary change ever. The unit is more expensive than normal musk already and has clear weaknesses early. If i were to nerf anything it would be blueberry gather rate

[lemmings121]

I just like would like to see, somehow, torps being part of the swe eco, not a replacement for vills. Currently the vills job is only building torps, all the economy comes from torps, and looking by the patch history, soon the devs will make the explorer able to build torps, so vills arent needed at all anymore.

Japa and inca are frustrating to play against because of their houses, but at least if you sit under the tc and idle all vills , you are doing eco dmg. While if you sit under swe tc and idle their 12 vills is pointless, as the 15 torps are working for 35 vills somewhere on the map.

[Kaiserklein]

Yeah fast age is an issue.

Show hidden quotes

I think the only option Ger really has is tower rushing, which is still a long way off a guaranteed win ofc but yeah. The ability to contain is also hugely map dependent, like even more so than Japan kinda.

This seems like a viable option for Germany.

The amount of units Germany can pop out before Swedes can get any meaningful mass will just be overwhelming if Swedes decide to do the max torps greedy build.

They don't have to go max torp pop if you commit to tower rushing. It means you're shipping units first instead of 3 sw or 700w, and you delay (or even cut) your TP. Surely sweden can just slow down their boom a bit and hold, while still being ahead in eco, and with better units...

I don't know, but just give it a try. Certainly better doing tower rush than semi ff against Sweden (especially since most Sweden players go the greed build)

Well I know, because I've tried. Several times. It's garbage.

[Kaiserklein]

Naked FF could work better, but in theory sweden can just adapt and FF themselves, and then I don't think germany has a window to really do any damage.

This is the only point I would argue against. Sweden opening vills has to send all of dominions, 700w, blueberries in age 2 or they're bad. If they open TP they might be able to squeeze a single Age III shipment in before you hit, but that's not adaptive. If they don't open TP, I don't think they can easily adapt to a naked FF. they're pretty stuck with their first 4-5 shipments.

Nah they don't need that.
Anyway I've played a game recently on Florida vs Sweden. When I clicked on a torp it had almost 2000 hp and was called engelsberg torp or whatever, and the berries were called blueberries. So that means dominions, blueberries, and ironworks were shipped I guess? Yet he was up to fortress at 7:50, after investing into a rax and 5 caroleans too. So going age 3 while shipping these cards is definitely a thing. 5 musks semi at 7:50 is quite slow, but if you shipped pure eco cards it's not very slow all things considered.

[harcha]

Personally I find 3 things that make Sweden seem too strong for me:

1) The boom is too easy and fast. I'm thinking about the following remedies:
- moving blueberries to colonial, moving ironworks to fortress
- an alternative would be bringing back the 200w 300f start
- not allowing torp to gather 2 kinds of berries simultaneously (i.e. berry bushes)
- consider replacing fast ageup with something else. maybe the mercenary age-up could be semi-fast.
- nerf dominions HP boost or remove it entirely. the shipment point is already awesome bonus (let's you gather crates with no vilseconds spent), i'm not sure why they also need to become somewhat invincible

2) Their military shipments are too good. No other euro civ gets 4 military shipments in age 2 + mercs. Boom civs like port and brit get 2 good military shipments.
- remove 3 hus from swedes

3) Their military scales a bit too hard. I like the design with HP shipments and AA civ bonus. Let's not go overboard.
- revert the "jaeger landsknecht BR" available by default (would go well together with a semi-fast merc ageup)
- nerf the 16 range carolean shipment by increasing the price of unit by 10 gold.

[Riotcoke]

Delete thish civ

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

Not really the subject of this discussion, but as anyone tried the logistician for Sweden ? It's essentially a 200w+arsenal politician, which seems at least better than 200g+tower, especially considering that Sweden has free advanced arsenal.

[kevinitalien]

Not really the subject of this discussion, but as anyone tried the logistician for Sweden ? It's essentially a 200w+arsenal politician, which seems at least better than 200g+tower, especially considering that Sweden has free advanced arsenal.

yeah but u dont want stay age 2 anyways i think, and the age up is 900f which is pretty late with tp start

[KnArLoC]

Torps now show gather rates, but engelsberg torps don't....

[aaryngend]

They got 1 extra range from start which is the most important thing and also more ranged base damage.

What where??

Maybe not the very last patch but at some point along the way of reworking caroleans they got more base damage. I mean the second time they got the buff.

That argument is invalid then. Because the change you are speaking of goes for both patches (the one now and the other one before that). You made it sound like Patch 1 doesn't have the change but Patch 2 does, where in fact both have the change since it is an older one from back in November or so.

[Garja]

Ye ok, but well they keep reworking the civ and the unit so everything should be considered together. This version of carolean is better than the one with 11 range for the purpose of the majority of 1v1 games. Idk about team, but like having that extra +2 range or so in imperial is very marginal.

[aaryngend]

Ye ok, but well they keep reworking the civ and the unit so everything should be considered together. This version of carolean is better than the one with 11 range for the purpose of the majority of 1v1 games. Idk about team, but like having that extra +2 range or so in imperial is very marginal.

For 1v1 games, it is indeed marginal, because even in Industrial with all upgrades, their range is very similar to pre-patch status. For team games, it matters slightly more because the chance to hit Imperial is quite a bit higher.
Apart from the range (in late-game situations), I think losing that bonus damage vs Ranged Cav is the biggest nerf to the Carolean (the slight nerf to bonus damage to Hand Cav is fine and doesn't change much). Since the Swedes got rebuffed in other areas, this nerf doesn't carry as much weight nor is it noticed by many players

[firstaim]

Main issue is that every musket outmatches them in age 2 (un-upgraded and especially upgraded), obviously we can't look at them in a vacuum, as Swedes have leather cannon, but if a cost increase or even a higher rate of coin to food, I suspect they trade way to poorly to even bother considering. I think they are fine as they are, and may need a bit of a nerf in late game but in the most recent patch I've only got to age 3 once, let alone age 4.

Carolean Speed 4.25>4
Resistance 0.30>0.20
Range attack 19>24
Remove multiplier to cav x1.5

may be some other small adjustment also can be applied.

[ssaa22]

Carolean Speed 4.25>4
Resistance 0.30>0.20
Range attack 19>24
Remove multiplier to cav x1.5
may be some other small adjustment also can be applied.

Don't forget Rate of Fire 2.5>3

[firstaim]

Carolean Speed 4.25>4
Resistance 0.30>0.20
Range attack 19>24
Remove multiplier to cav x1.5
may be some other small adjustment also can be applied.

Don't forget Rate of Fire 2.5>3

I really forget. 21