Update 14825

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France Kaiserklein
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Re: Update 14825

Post by Kaiserklein »

Wait caroleans have 2.5 rof? So they're just as good as musks in musk wars, and better at a lot of other things?
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Re: Update 14825

Post by ssaa22 »

Kaiserklein wrote:Wait caroleans have 2.5 rof? So they're just as good as musks in musk wars, and better at a lot of other things?
I can't hide my surprise at the fact that even top-notch players overlooked it. If they succeed in engaging without any interference, they have a much more powerful DPS than ordinary musketeer. It's like LB.
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Re: Update 14825

Post by Hazza54321 »

Kaiserklein wrote:Wait caroleans have 2.5 rof? So they're just as good as musks in musk wars, and better at a lot of other things?
They used to have 2 rof :D
France Kaiserklein
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Re: Update 14825

Post by Kaiserklein »

ssaa22 wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Wait caroleans have 2.5 rof? So they're just as good as musks in musk wars, and better at a lot of other things?
I can't hide my surprise at the fact that even top-notch players overlooked it. If they succeed in engaging without any interference, they have a much more powerful DPS than ordinary musketeer. It's like LB.
Well they change caroleans every patch so I can't be bothered to check the stats
They don't seem to have higher DPS though. I think it's roughly the same as a normal musk
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Update 14825

Post by Kaiserklein »

Hazza54321 wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Wait caroleans have 2.5 rof? So they're just as good as musks in musk wars, and better at a lot of other things?
They used to have 2 rof :D
Ofc yeah, back when people said they were trash with "14 attack" haha. I just thought they were changed to 3 rof.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Update 14825

Post by Le Hussard sur le toit »

Kaiserklein wrote:
ssaa22 wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Wait caroleans have 2.5 rof? So they're just as good as musks in musk wars, and better at a lot of other things?
I can't hide my surprise at the fact that even top-notch players overlooked it. If they succeed in engaging without any interference, they have a much more powerful DPS than ordinary musketeer. It's like LB.
Well they change caroleans every patch so I can't be bothered to check the stats
They don't seem to have higher DPS though. I think it's roughly the same as a normal musk
Before ups, 114/15 for caroleans, 120/15 for ashis, 115/15 for musks, 125/15 for sepoys, 100/15 for jans. Ashis and sepoys deal significantly more damage, but musks are basically the same.
Caroleans sucks early on vs cav though.
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Re: Update 14825

Post by Kaiserklein »

Well ashis (and maybe sepoys too) don't deal more damage if you take into account their higher cost.

Idk that unupped caroleans "suck" vs cav. Sure they deal roughly half the melee damage to cav compared to musks, but
1) they deal 50% more damage at range
2) they have 30% melee resist. That's roughly 15% more hp in melee than musks
3) they're faster which is always nice vs cav

Basically yeah cav can catch small groups of caroleans and trade a bit better than vs musks. But the critical mass you need to kite and one shoot a huss is way smaller, and you can kite better with this unit especially if you abuse the melee thing. In mass I'd argue that caroleans are just a superior anti cav, because you often end up shooting at cav, they won't just run their cav in your melee musks.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Update 14825

Post by princeofkabul »

Kaiserklein wrote:Well ashis (and maybe sepoys too) don't deal more damage if you take into account their higher cost.

Idk that unupped caroleans "suck" vs cav. Sure they deal roughly half the melee damage to cav compared to musks, but
1) they deal 50% more damage at range
2) they have 30% melee resist. That's roughly 15% more hp in melee than musks
3) they're faster which is always nice vs cav

Basically yeah cav can catch small groups of caroleans and trade a bit better than vs musks. But the critical mass you need to kite and one shoot a huss is way smaller, and you can kite better with this unit especially if you abuse the melee thing. In mass I'd argue that caroleans are just a superior anti cav, because you often end up shooting at cav, they won't just run their cav in your melee musks.
Didnt they remove multipliers against cav for caros? Or was it just light cav and heavy melee cav bonuses were left untouched? I fucking can't keep up with these updates anymore.
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Latvia harcha
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Re: Update 14825

Post by harcha »

Yeah they removed multi vs light ranged cav. So now goons work pretty damn well vs the stupid "double your eco musk hus right click".
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Re: Update 14825

Post by aaryngend »

princeofkabul wrote:Didnt they remove multipliers against cav for caros? Or was it just light cav and heavy melee cav bonuses were left untouched? I fucking can't keep up with these updates anymore.
They slightly nerfed the multiplier vs hand cav and removed the one against ranged cav altogether.
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Re: Update 14825

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Post by Aussie_Drongo »

firstaim wrote:
Aussie_Drongo wrote:Main issue is that every musket outmatches them in age 2 (un-upgraded and especially upgraded), obviously we can't look at them in a vacuum, as Swedes have leather cannon, but if a cost increase or even a higher rate of coin to food, I suspect they trade way to poorly to even bother considering. I think they are fine as they are, and may need a bit of a nerf in late game but in the most recent patch I've only got to age 3 once, let alone age 4.
Carolean Speed 4.25>4
Resistance 0.30>0.20
Range attack 19>24
Remove multiplier to cav x1.5

may be some other small adjustment also can be applied.
But then we just standardise them and make them the same as every other musketeer, I think its best to avoid every civ having the British musketeer with a different skin.

I think it's fine where it is currently, only changes need to occur are to cards IMO, Snaplock 3 range -> 2 range, and Svea lifeguard 30% melee resist -> 20% ranged resist.
harcha wrote:Yeah they removed multi vs light ranged cav. So now goons work pretty damn well vs the stupid "double your eco musk hus right click".
It seems goons work well vs everything Sweden has right now, and not just the Swede who is fortunate enough to play against a person who does not punish / counter the "8 minute torp boom with 3 cards into military production"
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Re: Update 14825

Post by Jets »

Aussie_Drongo wrote: But then we just standardise them and make them the same as every other musketeer, I think its best to avoid every civ having the British musketeer with a different skin.

I think it's fine where it is currently, only changes need to occur are to cards IMO, Snaplock 3 range -> 2 range, and Svea lifeguard 30% melee resist -> 20% ranged resist.
Actually, they suck because they don't fulfill their job as other musk's do, which is do decent against most units. They suck vs cav, they're weaker than other musk's, they get outdamaged by other musk's. Their stats doesn't represent their cost, and the range card and multipliers it's just a weird combination for a HI unit.

There are already different types of infantry (HI, skirms, archers, grenadiers, pikes, shock infantry). There's no point on giving a HI unit some ranged multipliers when their job is to tank cav attacks, rather than snipe them down.

Their numbers are weird too, as the post above says, most of them should be standardized, except the 30MR, also the caro charge should be unlocked, thus giving the inicial purpose to the unit as it was intended in the first place. Also, their stats can be upgraded easily with the advanced arsenal.

Give them melee multipliers as any other musketeer, given them also a 1.25 -1.5 melee multiplier vs heavy infantry to complement their charge mechanic. Similar to the jaguar prowler knight.

Standard musketeers work because they're the ideal unit designed for the aoe3 system, take a look at janissaries, ashigarus and even red coat musketeers.
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Re: Update 14825

Post by Le Hussard sur le toit »

Caroleans are great as they are. The range resist card should be nerfed, and with their current stats they could go back to the original charge mechanic (ie, different speed/stats in melee mode). At least they should make the charge ability a unit by unit ability rather than a global thing.
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Re: Update 14825

Post by Jets »

Armor changes shouldn't exist, devs are trying so hard to innovate with this unit that the whole idea has changed and twisted.

+10% MR, x1.5 HI multiplier, melee charge musketeer seems already fine as a concept, why go further with ranged stats, ranged cards, and armor changes? The lack of goons has turned the caroleans into some weird pokemon evolution unit, from weak musketeer to unmounted goon-like.
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Re: Update 14825

Post by firstaim »

Aussie_Drongo wrote: But then we just standardise them and make them the same as every other musketeer, I think its best to avoid every civ having the British musketeer with a different skin.

I think it's fine where it is currently, only changes need to occur are to cards IMO, Snaplock 3 range -> 2 range, and Svea lifeguard 30% melee resist -> 20% ranged resist.
I agree that's not good to have all same musketeer with different skin, but from experience of tomahawk/Nat tomahawk (why ES didn't use NAT tomahawk same characteristic as Haud regular unit) and Ashi with 4.5 speed, more specific abilities will cause more problems to the balance, no matter it is good or bad.
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Re: Update 14825

Post by harcha »

Jets wrote:Armor changes shouldn't exist, devs are trying so hard to innovate with this unit that the whole idea has changed and twisted.

+10% MR, x1.5 HI multiplier, melee charge musketeer seems already fine as a concept, why go further with ranged stats, ranged cards, and armor changes? The lack of goons has turned the caroleans into some weird pokemon evolution unit, from weak musketeer to unmounted goon-like.
What are you talking about? Aren't these the current stats?
caro.png
I don't think there is anything wrong with the resist card as long as the unit tags are not changed (thus your old counters still work, even if they are slightly less efficient). Consider that there are plenty of unit conversion cards in the game already. Cbow>skirm, pike>rod, axe>rr, quang/ckn>chang/arq, strelet>musk. These are arguably more significant than the age 4 resistance card.
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: Update 14825

Post by Jets »

Those stats i was talking about were my ideal stats for the Carolean, something like a JPK but with a musk ranged attack.
harcha wrote:
I don't think there is anything wrong with the resist card as long as the unit tags are not changed (thus your old counters still work, even if they are slightly less efficient). Consider that there are plenty of unit conversion cards in the game already. Cbow>skirm, pike>rod, axe>rr, quang/ckn>chang/arq, strelet>musk. These are arguably more significant than the age 4 resistance card.
Starts as a musketeer, then you get an unmounted goon with Flintlock card, and at last it's a semi-Urumi charging hybrid with goon ranged attack.
All that trouble for not letting Sweden have goons, or at least make the hakkapellita something similar to a Rifle Rider.
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Latvia harcha
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Re: Update 14825

Post by harcha »

The unit is there and it works. No reason to scrap it and make a new one.
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.

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