I have a question. But I'm not sure that everyone agrees with me.

[ssaa22]

Do developers love games? And do developers actually play their own games?

Will AOE3 be a great game that we thought of in October 2021?

[Mr_Bramboy]

I am not sure that one can agree with a question.

[harcha]

Yes

[InaLeto]

And do developers actually play their own games?

Not shure about that... - If they were to seriously play it themselves, a release like the one at the beginning would not have happened. Sweden would not have happened either. xD

My feeling tells me that developers are not necessarily gamers. Nowadays game developers probably don't have to focus on the immediate fun of the game, but rather "create the best possible within certain time frames".
Completely different motives also play a role: How, for example, the new content is better to be too strong than too weak, so that more data is available for adaptation. A logical thought, which is unimportant to a player, he might have preferred a direct meaningful embedding.
Or the whole discussion about adapting "Colonial Age" to "Commerce Age" ... this was probably not that important as a player, but as a developer (or for the company behind it) it seemed very important!

In fairness, it's also wrong to assume that the developers behind the game have been AoE3 fans themselves for the past 15 years. Rather, the design of AoE3DE is not based on the dream of honoring this masterpiece, but belongs to a common concept in conjunction with the entire AoE series ... Promoting AoE4, the Image and the Microsoft Store ... - We can well Be happy that the developers, despite the many other motives, perhaps even as closely as possible, oriented themselves to many of the ideas of the ESO community (which in turn saves development time ... xD).

[edeholland]

Not sure who you mean with "developer"? Everyone working at the development studio? Or the ones programming the game?

[InaLeto]

Not sure who you mean with "developer"? Everyone working at the development studio? Or the ones programming the game?

A justified question: I therefore answered broadly and only expressed coarse thoughts that include development, programming and the underlying variables and do not differentiate.
And to be clear, when i say, we can be lucky, i mean it that way! : D Not every beloved old game receives so much attention after so many years! <3
However, it is also human that not everyone agrees with changes! Especially since I think I understand a certain criticism behind the thread question xD

[comradecommissar]

Aren't Forgotten Empires basically an AOE2 fan project that everyone loved and then MS turned them into a real studio tasked with developing DE? My sense from their website (they mention having been part of the competitive AOE2 scene) is that they are AOE2 fans who are working on AOE3 because thats what MS is making them do.

[vividlyplain]

Not sure who you mean with "developer"? Everyone working at the development studio? Or the ones programming the game?

Well dodged.

[88_Baron_Rojo_88]

ask to Interjection

[harcha]

it can be hard to reach him

[I_HaRRiiSoN_I]

I can assure you the people involved in the AOE3DE project are true AOE fans.

[gibson]

Multiple people working on the game are aoe3 players. Threads like this make me seriously doubt the average iq of humanity is 100.

[princeofcarthage]

Multiple people working on the game are aoe3 players. Threads like this make me seriously doubt the average iq of humanity is 100.

This is slightly misleading tbh. Average IQ is intentionally maintained at 100. Questionnaire is changed year so that average IQ would maintain to 100. I could be wrong, I read it somewhere a while ago.

[gibson]

Question: do you think the point of what I said was to talk about iq methodology or to insult people?

[Jotunir]

Question: do you think the point of what I said was to talk about iq methodology or to insult people?

Clearly you have an exceptional talent for the latter...

[princeofcarthage]

To insult people I think

[princeofcarthage]

My point was it couldn't really be thought of as an insult since 100 iq is a variable term. Today's 100 iq could be equivalent to Einstien (example)

[aaryngend]

My point was it couldn't really be thought of as an insult since 100 iq is a variable term. Today's 100 iq could be equivalent to Einstien (example)

Lol IQ is not a simple value like PR30, it should stay roughly the same, regardless of what year it is.
I've seen plenty of stupid decisions or ideas presented by people with an above average IQ, so let's leave it at that

About the question in the introduction post, it is a bit of both.
No, aoe3:DE and aoe2:DE were not developed only by fans who mod in their freetime, that would never work, people making these mods lack the wide variety of skills that you need to accomplish a huge task like this. Tantalus Media and Wicked Witch(for aoe2:DE) played a huge role here, don't forget that, Forgotten Empires are/were mostly people who designed new civs, knowing some basic script languages and that's it. But now that they grew and were directly supported by Microsoft, things changed and they hired new talent from inside the industry with years of experience, filling the holes of experience that the modders lacked.
Aoe2:HD wasn't developed by Forgotten Empires alone, Hidden Path Entertainment and SkyBox Labs were taken onboard to help them with it.
Hidden Path Entertainment have a lot fo experience with porting older games over to new releases. They were the ones who took over the development of CS:GO in the beginning of the game, once it was decided that it won't be an XBOX-exclusive game anymore.

Even today, Forgotten Empires only has like 50 employees. I have talked to one of their devs so far and he was not a modder nor a game designer, just a guy who was a really good programmer, experienced in vector graphics, decided it would be a good idea to apply for an open position and is now maintaining the game's engine and technical side of aoe2.

[princeofcarthage]

@aaryngend I think you should read my earlier post.

[Jotunir]

My point was it couldn't really be thought of as an insult since 100 iq is a variable term. Today's 100 iq could be equivalent to Einstien (example)

Lol IQ is not a simple value like PR30, it should stay roughly the same, regardless of what year it is.
I've seen plenty of stupid decisions or ideas presented by people with an above average IQ, so let's leave it at that

About the question in the introduction post, it is a bit of both.
No, aoe3:DE and aoe2:DE were not developed only by fans who mod in their freetime, that would never work, people making these mods lack the wide variety of skills that you need to accomplish a huge task like this. Tantalus Media and Wicked Witch(for aoe2:DE) played a huge role here, don't forget that, Forgotten Empires are/were mostly people who designed new civs, knowing some basic script languages and that's it. But now that they grew and were directly supported by Microsoft, things changed and they hired new talent from inside the industry with years of experience, filling the holes of experience that the modders lacked.
Aoe2:HD wasn't developed by Forgotten Empires alone, Hidden Path Entertainment and SkyBox Labs were taken onboard to help them with it.
Hidden Path Entertainment have a lot fo experience with porting older games over to new releases. They were the ones who took over the development of CS:GO in the beginning of the game, once it was decided that it won't be an XBOX-exclusive game anymore.

Even today, Forgotten Empires only has like 50 employees. I have talked to one of their devs so far and he was not a modder nor a game designer, just a guy who was a really good programmer, experienced in vector graphics, decided it would be a good idea to apply for an open position and is now maintaining the game's engine and technical side of aoe2.

Thank you for the thorough explanation @aaryngend , it was well worth reading.

[edeholland]

Not sure who you mean with "developer"? Everyone working at the development studio? Or the ones programming the game?

Anyway, reason I asked this is because there are many different studios and people within the studios working on the game. Those calling the shots (those who can make/break this game like it's being talked about in the OP) are usually not the ones implementing the actual code.

Almost everyone I know from Forgotten Empires and Microsoft are true Age-lovers. They want to see the franchise be succesful for their love for the game and not for financial gains (if they even get those). However, these people are mostly designers/balance testers/community team members. Some of them even started out as a modder, high-level player or content creator, so of course they are fans of the game. I'm also sure there are people somewhere within all the teams and studios who don't really know the Age franchise. There will be people higher up the chain that just want to push Xbox as a gaming platform or want to promote Age 1/2/3 to pave a road towards Age 4. There will also be people that just like developing/programming games and don't specifically like Age, but I'm sure they like it to some extends since it is their project. In IT it's easy enough to switch jobs, so if you don't like what you are working on, it's generally easy to move to another project.

Bottom line, those who are making the patches that slowly make 3DE a better game every month are die-hard fans who have dedicated their lives to the franchise. But there will always be constraints from higher-ups they have to adhere to, and those "developers" are not necessarily people who have time to play games.

[aaryngend]

Not sure who you mean with "developer"? Everyone working at the development studio? Or the ones programming the game?

Anyway, reason I asked this is because there are many different studios and people within the studios working on the game.

I get why you asked this ede, because his question was very vague indeed ( I don't think he even realized how vague it was )

Almost everyone I know from Forgotten Empires and Microsoft are true Age-lovers. They want to see the franchise be succesful for their love for the game and not for financial gains (if they even get those).

I love this bit because it perfectly describes how people in game development basically make no money. It truly is a job people take upon themselves fueled by their passion, you can make more money pretty much everywhere else, so there is no other explanation for this. So anyone sticking to this kind of lifestyle and job are most likely not doing that to earn what little money they get out of the whole thing.

However, these people are mostly designers/balance testers/community team members. Some of them even started out as a modder, high-level player or content creator, so of course they are fans of the game.

Ye, this is how I imagine early Forgotten Empires team looked like (before they were even contacted by Microsoft), a bunch of loosely connected devs sharing the same goal and passion.
I just found this link, showcasing how original devs who did the coding and graphical components of the game joined the ranks of Forgotten Empires some years ago, bringing in their decades long expertise:
https://www.forgottenempires.net/former ... in-fe-team

Matt was one of the very first engineers at Ensemble Studios back in 1996. He was invaluable in developing the first two games of the series, Age of Empires and Age of Empires II: The Age of Kings and the engine (Genie) that they were built upon. He was a senior lead on graphics and was responsible for making sure the games were properly optimized. In 2012, he was also one of the driving forces to turn Age of Empires II HD into a reality. Matt joined Forgotten Empires in 2016 as our Director of Engineering, and his expertise has helped us take huge leaps forward on -thusfar unannounced- projects! Stay tuned for an upcoming interview!

Rich joined Ensemble Studios much later, in 2004, but was active in the magical world of graphics rendering for 20 years prior to that (his codecs were already used in Age of Empires 1 and 2!). At Ensemble Studios, he worked on graphics/shaders/optimization/multithreading for Age of Empires III and was core engine lead on Halo Wars in addition to his work on rendering and graphics tools. Rich joined Forgotten Empires in 2016, and we are looking forward to sharing his amazing contributions to date and to come!

There will also be people that just like developing/programming games and don't specifically like Age, but I'm sure they like it to some extends since it is their project. In IT it's easy enough to switch jobs, so if you don't like what you are working on, it's generally easy to move to another project.

Let's also not forget all the artists (many of which are contract-based and don't even work long on a project, not even being in-house) who draw the updated icons and stuff.

Bottom line, those who are making the patches that slowly make 3DE a better game every month are die-hard fans who have dedicated their lives to the franchise.
But there will always be constraints from higher-ups they have to adhere to, and those "developers" are not necessarily people who have time to play games.
Those calling the shots (those who can make/break this game like it's being talked about in the OP) are usually not the ones implementing the actual code.

Exactly, and these people higher up in the chain are the ones making most of the decisions. Your influence as a developer is limited if your boss doesn't want you to have one. Or if the boss of the boss (hell, maybe even the shareholders to the company!) decide they are only gonna pour little resources into a project. Nothing you can do

[ssaa22]

I read your reply well.

I think I had a stupid idea that the game was going badly because it was only going in the direction I didn't want. First of all, I think it would be good to develop my own skills first and then discuss it more seriously.
Anyway, as a fan of AOE3, I just hope the game develops well. GGWP all

[howlingwolfpaw]

Remember the days of Ryzon.

Maybe there are secret accounts of devs here or there in the game

But then again, Ryzon had chat rooms to entertain and be entertained with.