Why do Crossbows have 1.25x multiplier vs HI instead of 2x?

[MaxH]

I was wondering why crossbows have a lower multiplier against HI than other ranged infantry. They seem to do pretty poorly against an equal amount of musketeers because of this.

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

Because it's cool that different units have different multipliers.

[Garja]

Because archer type units have more base damage but less multiplier. The issue with xbows is that they have mediocre base damage and also low multiplier.

[yoqpasa]

And counter ashis, caroleans or sepoys? You wish.

Honestly x2 seems to much for a 80 resources unit. 32 damage is insane. Skirmishers makes 36 dmg vs HI for example.

But yeah, xbows make x2 vs goons and nobody complains. I think 1.5 would be fair enough.

[helln00]

I think its so that they roughly deal the same amount of damage to musks in age 2 and vice versa since 16*1.25 = 20 and musks have 23 atk.

[Kaiserklein]

And counter ashis, caroleans or sepoys? You wish.

Honestly x2 seems to much for a 80 resources unit. 32 damage is insane. Skirmishers makes 36 dmg vs HI for example.

But yeah, xbows make x2 vs goons and nobody complains. I think 1.5 would be fair enough.

Well skirms do 30 in colo, so yeah 32 is too much. 1.5 multiplier could have been fine maybe.
Xbows do x1.5 vs goons though. It's x2 vs ranged cav but also x0.75 vs all cav. Unless that was changed on DE

[helln00]

And counter ashis, caroleans or sepoys? You wish.

Honestly x2 seems to much for a 80 resources unit. 32 damage is insane. Skirmishers makes 36 dmg vs HI for example.

But yeah, xbows make x2 vs goons and nobody complains. I think 1.5 would be fair enough.

Well skirms do 30 in colo, so yeah 32 is too much. 1.5 multiplier could have been fine maybe.
Xbows do x1.5 vs goons though. It's x2 vs ranged cav but also x0.75 vs all cav. Unless that was changed on DE

That really puts into perspective how powerful ckn are in colonial, they deal same damage as skirm

[Kaiserklein]

Well yeah it's an extremely strong unit. But the only strong one they get

[Jets]

xbows have the HP buff at the arsenal, too lame it's only an age3 thing unless you get advanced arsenal, and by that time you switch to skirms.

[arivus]

I prefer that they keep the multiplier and damage, but instead changing their multiplier to infantry than HI, so they can also be used to counter skirmisher.

[helln00]

I prefer that they keep the multiplier and damage, but instead changing their multiplier to infantry than HI, so they can also be used to counter skirmisher.

that would also mean that they counter themselves, which could be interesting

[arivus]

I prefer that they keep the multiplier and damage, but instead changing their multiplier to infantry than HI, so they can also be used to counter skirmisher.

that would also mean that they counter themselves, which could be interesting

Yup, and I forgot to add that the multiplier change should come with the Guard upgrade just to make them have use in age4.

[Efraín]

Comparing with the chukonu and the cost of the unit, it should have a bonus x1.75 vs HI (or x1.5 as minimum). Maybe is better x1.5.

[chris1089]

Comparing with the chukonu and the cost of the unit, it should have a bonus x1.75 vs HI (or x1.5 as minimum). Maybe is better x1.5.

As said above, the chokonu is particularly strong. Therefore it should not be the baseline with which to compare crossbows.

[Jets]

I prefer that they keep the multiplier and damage, but instead changing their multiplier to infantry than HI, so they can also be used to counter skirmisher.

that would also mean that they counter themselves, which could be interesting

Cheyenne Riders, JPK.

[Kaiserklein]

I prefer that they keep the multiplier and damage, but instead changing their multiplier to infantry than HI, so they can also be used to counter skirmisher.

that would also mean that they counter themselves, which could be interesting

Cheyenne Riders, JPK.

Culvs, RR, ninjas...

[Efraín]

Comparing with the chukonu and the cost of the unit, it should have a bonus x1.75 vs HI (or x1.5 as minimum). Maybe is better x1.5.

As said above, the chokonu is particularly strong. Therefore it should not be the baseline with which to compare crossbows.

True, CKNs are strong, but that doesn't mean the crossbowman doesn't need a x1.5 bonus, as they look particularly weak at x1.25 imo.

[chris1089]

Comparing with the chukonu and the cost of the unit, it should have a bonus x1.75 vs HI (or x1.5 as minimum). Maybe is better x1.5.

As said above, the chokonu is particularly strong. Therefore it should not be the baseline with which to compare crossbows.

True, CKNs are strong, but that doesn't mean the crossbowman doesn't need a x1.5 bonus, as they look particularly weak at x1.25 imo.

I'd probably agree that 1.25 is weak. Doesn't change the fact that arguing from a false premise - comparing it to the chokonu as a baseline - is faulty argumentation.
If you start by assuming that the square root of 2 can be written as the ratio of 2 distinct integers with no cofactors you get to dodgy conclusions.

[Efraín]

Show hidden quotes

Comparing with the chukonu and the cost of the unit, it should have a bonus x1.75 vs HI (or x1.5 as minimum). Maybe is better x1.5.

As said above, the chokonu is particularly strong. Therefore it should not be the baseline with which to compare crossbows.

True, CKNs are strong, but that doesn't mean the crossbowman doesn't need a x1.5 bonus, as they look particularly weak at x1.25 imo.

I'd probably agree that 1.25 is weak. Doesn't change the fact that arguing from a false premise - comparing it to the chokonu as a baseline - is faulty argumentation.
If you start by assuming that the square root of 2 can be written as the ratio of 2 distinct integers with no cofactors you get to dodgy conclusions.

It is correct and that, curiously, I usually do personal balances based on the standard unit (xbow, huss, pikeman, musk).

[Jets]

x1.5 vs HI would encourage civs to train xbows instead of going pure musketeer war against jap, brits, sweden and otto. Right now, all those musketeers from the previous civs that I mentioned wreck xbows because of their stats.

[Kaiserklein]

It's not that simple. Bows do fine in low numbers vs basically any musk unit. You're able to kite enough musks so when they finally catch up you just win the fight. Let's not pretend the unit can't beat musks.

The problem is just that past a certain mass they become mediocre vs musks, because with some cav snaring the musks catch up and then bows suck. Also with overkill, the proportion of musks you kill before they catch up just isn't as big a in low numbers anyway.

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

Ashis are a bit of an exception I think because their speed make them harder to kite. Xbows should have a specific multiplier against ashis...

[Kaiserklein]

Nah even vs ashis they're okay if it's e.g 15 bows vs 12 ashis (or some similar proportions in low numbers). Though it's easy to fuck up the micro obviously.

[helln00]

I think if you want to buff xbows look to how lbs are upgraded, I think a +1 range with the vet tech and another +1 for the guard tech (so 18 range total) is sufficient by allowing them to kite better in small masses.

[gibson]

@Rohbrot shitter