Unpopular opinion, should the Ottomans be a European or Asian civilization?

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Should the Ottomans be a European or Asian civilization?

European
18
35%
Asian
15
29%
I will wait for Garja to post before forming my opinion
18
35%
 
Total votes: 51

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Nauru Dolan
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Re: Unpopular opinion, should the Ottomans be a European or Asian civilization?

Post by Dolan »

They're actually more related to Turkic people from Central Asia.
Look into peoples like Turkmens, Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Tatars, Azerbaijanis, etc.
I mean, did anyone read their names? Or tried to speak their language. It's Euro af.

So, since you guys want a proper intellectual debate, here's a starter with some linguistic comparisons between names that are common among Turkic peoples, including Turkish people.
Let's see some "European" names from Turkey, let's look at a database of Turkish names, a neutral source of information: https://www.behindthename.com/names/usage/turkish

Aslan
Asuman
Abdülhamit
Ayaz
Aygül
Ayşegül
Ayşenur
Bahtiyar
Başak
Cevdet
Fatih
Derviş
Ebubekir
Hakan

Let's compare this with Tatar names: Timur, Zifa, Ildar.
Turkmen names: Süleýman, Azat, Arslan.
Azerbaijani names: Ayaz, Aslan, Aysel, Aygün, Nazim, Rashad, Samir.

Let's move a little further from Turkic peoples and compare to Mongolian names: Khulan, Batu, Batbayar, Zaya, Temüülen, Tögöldör.

Anyone here still has any doubts that Turkish names are clearly European?
Want me to quote the entire database of Turkic names and compare them with other European names from all the major linguistic groups from Europe (Slavic, Romance, Germanic, etc)?
Let's compare Johan, George, Maria to Ebubekir, Süleyman, Arslan, Hakan, Fatih and other such Turkish European names.
RefluxSemantic wrote:So basically, the Ottomans were more related to China than to the people from Tunis or Egypt, because we arbitrarily drew a border between Africa and Asia there?
They are not related to people of North Africa or to Arabs, they are a distinct ethnic group of Central Asian origins, mixed with local Anatolians.
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Re: Unpopular opinion, should the Ottomans be a European or Asian civilization?

Post by RefluxSemantic »

You dont have to be 'related to' eachother to be influenced by eachother. For example, the Dutch are hardly related to the greeks but we do use many concepts derived from ancient greek and the ancient greeks obviously had a huge influence on European culture in general. Thats just an example.

The arab world has been influenced by and has influenced the Ottomans. Far more so than some other Asian cultures and empires have.
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Re: Unpopular opinion, should the Ottomans be a European or Asian civilization?

Post by Dolan »

@RefluxSemantic Yes, but both Dutch and Greek cultures have developed in geographical Europe. Though it can be argued that their influence spread further than geographical Europe.
Still, their birthplace is geographical Europe, which is what makes calling these cultures 'European' a proper designation.
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Re: Unpopular opinion, should the Ottomans be a European or Asian civilization?

Post by princeofcarthage »

RefluxSemantic wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote:So basically, the Ottomans were more related to China than to the people from Tunis or Egypt, because we arbitrarily drew a border between Africa and Asia there?
China is stretch. Middle East or Western Asia has its unique identity and that is what majorly affected/inspired the ottomans, not the Europeans one. Even under Roman rule the area retained its unique identity different that from Rome. That is not to say that Ottomans weren't influenced but it was still very limited. They wanted to capture Europe and make it in their image, not vice versa.
Thats the point. Organizing cultures by arbitrarily drawn borders is a stretch.
True but then Ottomans don't exactly qualify as European civs. Asian pack added Asian civs like China, India, Japan, or the Natives added Native American civilizations. Ottomans don't exactly fit in same group as British or French. One could argue Russia is also different. But then I think we might be looking at this wrong way. The game is set in colonial era and the vanilla game simply shows the major colonial powers with Otto being one of them and not necessarily an European or an Asian one.
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Re: Unpopular opinion, should the Ottomans be a European or Asian civilization?

Post by princeofcarthage »

RefluxSemantic wrote:You dont have to be 'related to' eachother to be influenced by eachother. For example, the Dutch are hardly related to the greeks but we do use many concepts derived from ancient greek and the ancient greeks obviously had a huge influence on European culture in general. Thats just an example.

The arab world has been influenced by and has influenced the Ottomans. Far more so than some other Asian cultures and empires have.
Arab region includes parts of northern africa and middle east/western asia. I would argue persian culture has been the most influential on Ottoman empire but I could be wrong about that.
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Re: Unpopular opinion, should the Ottomans be a European or Asian civilization?

Post by scarm »

Well keep in mind that Russia and Ottomans are arguably distinct from the rest of the Euro Civs in game as well, depicting that cultural distinction by for example their unit roster, or their way of training settlers.
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Re: Unpopular opinion, should the Ottomans be a European or Asian civilization?

Post by Plantinator »

Thats why i actually wanna see for russia vet ups reduced to 150 coin as a buff, it would reflect their asian influence nicely (asian civ get 100 coin vet ups)
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Re: Unpopular opinion, should the Ottomans be a European or Asian civilization?

Post by comradecommissar »

Dolan wrote:Nobody is denying that Turkey and the Otto empire imported Euro influences into their culture or that they influenced other neighbouring Euro cultures.
But the gist of the argument is that overall their Asian character trumps whatever Euro influences they had.
It's like saying Turkey/Otto is Euro because they're 18% Euro and 82% Asian. Let's get real, their culture is not predominantly European.

But pls, teach me more about European culture, people from Pakistan and the USA.
Post more American feminist arguments about how everything is "constructed" and the result of patriarchy oppression.

There is no need to have a breakdown, good sir.
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Re: Unpopular opinion, should the Ottomans be a European or Asian civilization?

Post by comradecommissar »

Dolan wrote:Nobody is denying that Turkey and the Otto empire imported Euro influences into their culture or that they influenced other neighbouring Euro cultures.
But the gist of the argument is that overall their Asian character trumps whatever Euro influences they had.
It's like saying Turkey/Otto is Euro because they're 18% Euro and 82% Asian. Let's get real, their culture is not predominantly European.

But pls, teach me more about European culture, people from Pakistan and the USA.
Post more American feminist arguments about how everything is "constructed" and the result of patriarchy oppression.
You literally still can't tell me what you mean by European culture and Asian culture, for all your pretenses at intellectual debate. Is it fair to categorize India and Japan as part of the same culture? Did a Russian peasant have the same culture as a farm hand in the UK?
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Re: Unpopular opinion, should the Ottomans be a European or Asian civilization?

Post by gibson »

It always amazes me how Dolan claims to be someone who only follows facts and science and how often he just doesn’t. I mean everyone has their blind spots but jeez.
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Re: Unpopular opinion, should the Ottomans be a European or Asian civilization?

Post by Dolan »

comradecommissar wrote:You literally still can't tell me what you mean by European culture and Asian culture, for all your pretenses at intellectual debate. Is it fair to categorize India and Japan as part of the same culture? Did a Russian peasant have the same culture as a farm hand in the UK?
There are two hard criteria I would use to decide on how to label a culture:
1 - the geographical criterion (where the culture is currently located)
2 - where did that people's ethnogenesis take place (in simple words, where did their people form a common culture and common awareness of belonging to the same ethnic group)

If we use the geographic criterion India and Japan do belong to the group of "Asian cultures", but that's a really generic way of defining them. Obviously, there can be a high degree of cultural distance between peoples living on the same continent. In fact, it would be hard to argue that there is such a thing as a unitary European culture or unitary Asian culture. It's more like neighbouring cultures situated along cultural clines (gradients) in which one cultural feature can gradually fade from one place to another, being shared across multiple cultures. A type of food recipe like "pilav" is very common in Central Asia, in different forms, but it has been spread as far as Eastern Europe, where we call it "pilaf". However, given the origin of this dish, it can be said it's a Central Asian recipe that has spread in neighbouring areas too.

India and Japan might fall under the same "big tent" classification as "Asian cultures" but they are obviously quite far apart. Just like within Europe, Swedish culture is very different from Italian culture.
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Re: Unpopular opinion, should the Ottomans be a European or Asian civilization?

Post by duckzilla »

I think all three monotheist religions (Christianity/Islam/Judaism) are European religions. All came from the same cradle of civilization which happens to be the foundation of modern European cultures. They are clearly distinguishable from other religions in the world, such as Hinduism or the various forms of Buddhism. They further all share the most relevant characteristic of believing in the existence of a single god (though Christianity is a bit weird in that regard).

One could formulate it differently by looking at the cultural thread that can be drawn through time. As an example, the Germanic tribes that lived in the Roman border region along the Rhine cannot be viewed as cultural ancestors of modern day Germany, although genetics might show strong connections. Their culture was transformed extremely via the contact to the Roman Empire, up to the point that, hundreds of years later, their descendants began calling the political structure they lived in the Holy Roman Empire. This was not only Roman in name, as the famous quote suggests, e.g. due to the line of succession that started with Roman generals of Frankish origin in the 300s, whose descendants took power (in the name of Rome!) when the Western Roman Empire fell and had their political structure slowly evolve into what became the HRE and France. Apart from this level of politics, the Germanic tribes also converted to the Roman religion of their time - Christianity - and many other cultural assets such as Roman law, the Augustine world view, etc. How much cultural aspects of the old Germanic tribes are left in Germany? Not very much. Some people argue that the federal system of Germany might have its roots in very early times. However, I would argue that the "federal" structure of Germany is based on the feudalization in the early high middle ages (800-1100AD) and not so much on previous Germanic traditions.
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Re: Unpopular opinion, should the Ottomans be a European or Asian civilization?

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Post by chris1089 »

Yet all 3 religions come from the middle East. Maybe there is another category other than Asia/ Europe that ought to be considered here? Clearly a false dichotomy.
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Re: Unpopular opinion, should the Ottomans be a European or Asian civilization?

Post by Dolan »

Turkey/Ottomans are kinda their own thing, meaning their civilisation doesn't get fully explained by their current geography.
They rightfully reject the idea that they're a Middle Eastern country and culture. They're a regional outlier, meaning you don't understand much about Turkey if you study their neighbours.
Even though they are close to the Middle East/Levant, they don't have much in common with neighbouring cultures like Syrian, Israeli, or Arab cultures.
They are fundamentally a Turkic culture that transplanted itself from Central Asia to a Middle Eastern - Mediterranean location, on top of a local population "layer" of Anatolians, who were descendents of Mediterranean colonists (Romans, Greeks, even Celts/Galatians).

@duckzilla
When they adopted a religion that was very common in the Middle East (Islamism) they distanced themselves from Europe, which was entirely Christian. Let's not forget that despite those 3 Abrahamic religions having roots in the same region, they did not see themselves as allies or relatives. Muslims call everyone who doesn't share their faith Kafir (infidel) or mushrik (polytheist). Israeli's religion, Mosaicism, also rejected Christianism as a sect whose initiator, Jesus, committed the blasphemy of calling himself the messiah, even though they were otherwise followers of all the orthodox Torah tenets. Even though these three religions appeared in the same region, there was no cosy cohabitation between them. And later, they even provided a cause for faith-based war. When Ottomans were invading the Balkans and Eastern Europe, they were doing it in the name of spreading Allah's calliphate, extending the glory of their god. When Christians launched Crusades to capture Jerusalem, they were doing the same thing, except to serve the objectives of their faith. And both killed their enemies in the name of their religious faiths, calling them infidels or heathen.

That's why I doubt that there is much significance to this argument that, if these three religions appeared in the same region and they played some role in European history, then they should be considered European. There's really no cultural argument for considering Islamism and Mosaicism European religions, because they never formed a majority in any European territory. Their fiefdom was definitely not in Europe, but elsewhere, in the Arab world, in Turkey, in the Middle East. Jews are a special case, because they had to live in diasporas for centuries. But Jews never considered a European country to be their own, the homebase of their religion. Their religious texts dictate that Israel is their holy land and that's why they created a political movement (Zionism) to recover their lands. If they identified as a European religion, they would have never mounted such a massive effort to recover their lands, plot by plot, and build a country in that barren land.

Also, another argument why I wouldn't place much significance on the fact that Christianism appeared in the Middle East is that, in its early phase, they were a sect that were inspired by a previous ascetic movement, the Essenes, whose faith is speculated to trace its roots in - surprise, surprise - Buddhism. Yep, it's possible that this component of Christianism which urged people to focus on the salvation of their soul and purifying themselves from all material concerns came from an ancient streak of Buddhism that was somehow carried over to the Middle East, among people living in the desert. It wouldn't be the first time when an idea that completely takes over a continent comes from another region, where it wasn't even considered the most important.

After all, both communism and capitalism appeared, in their modern forms, in Europe, and both completely changed China's history and the way they organised their society and economy. That doesn't make China European, though, obviously.
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Re: Unpopular opinion, should the Ottomans be a European or Asian civilization?

Post by princeofcarthage »

It is not entirely impossible that Christianity, Islam, and Judaism somehow came from Asia specifically Indian subcontinent. After all there is a lot of overlap and these are the things people used to to do for thousands of years before these religions came. Of course it is not possible to demonstrably prove that ideas travelled halfway around the world but it is completely plausible. When we say IVC disappeared it doesn't mean all of a sudden thousands of people disappeared. Some obviously survived and travelled in all directions thus spreading their way of life.
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Re: Unpopular opinion, should the Ottomans be a European or Asian civilization?

Post by Dolan »

It's not uncommon for ideas to travel like plant spores from one region to another, where they find a fertile ground to grow into something else.
The Essenes weren't just practicants of Buddhism. They probably heard about Buddhist ideas, got inspired and created their own remix, adding the idea of a single god from local Judaic traditions to the Buddhist spirit of rejecting the material world and living an ascetic, self-denying life.

Buddhist ideas were being spread in the Hellenistic world hundreds of years before the Essene and Christian sects appeared in the Middle East. There was even such a thing as Greco-Buddhism.
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Re: Unpopular opinion, should the Ottomans be a European or Asian civilization?

Post by comradecommissar »

princeofcarthage wrote:It is not entirely impossible that Christianity, Islam, and Judaism somehow came from Asia specifically Indian subcontinent. After all there is a lot of overlap and these are the things people used to to do for thousands of years before these religions came. Of course it is not possible to demonstrably prove that ideas travelled halfway around the world but it is completely plausible. When we say IVC disappeared it doesn't mean all of a sudden thousands of people disappeared. Some obviously survived and travelled in all directions thus spreading their way of life.
None of these religions came from the Indian subcontinent. Some of them arrived in the subcontinent hundreds, and others even thousands of years after they first started.
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Re: Unpopular opinion, should the Ottomans be a European or Asian civilization?

Post by comradecommissar »

Dolan wrote:Turkey/Ottomans are kinda their own thing, meaning their civilisation doesn't get fully explained by their current geography.
They rightfully reject the idea that they're a Middle Eastern country and culture. They're a regional outlier, meaning you don't understand much about Turkey if you study their neighbours.
Even though they are close to the Middle East/Levant, they don't have much in common with neighbouring cultures like Syrian, Israeli, or Arab cultures.
They are fundamentally a Turkic culture that transplanted itself from Central Asia to a Middle Eastern - Mediterranean location, on top of a local population "layer" of Anatolians, who were descendents of Mediterranean colonists (Romans, Greeks, even Celts/Galatians).

@duckzilla
When they adopted a religion that was very common in the Middle East (Islamism) they distanced themselves from Europe, which was entirely Christian. Let's not forget that despite those 3 Abrahamic religions having roots in the same region, they did not see themselves as allies or relatives. Muslims call everyone who doesn't share their faith Kafir (infidel) or mushrik (polytheist). Israeli's religion, Mosaicism, also rejected Christianism as a sect whose initiator, Jesus, committed the blasphemy of calling himself the messiah, even though they were otherwise followers of all the orthodox Torah tenets. Even though these three religions appeared in the same region, there was no cosy cohabitation between them. And later, they even provided a cause for faith-based war. When Ottomans were invading the Balkans and Eastern Europe, they were doing it in the name of spreading Allah's calliphate, extending the glory of their god. When Christians launched Crusades to capture Jerusalem, they were doing the same thing, except to serve the objectives of their faith. And both killed their enemies in the name of their religious faiths, calling them infidels or heathen.

That's why I doubt that there is much significance to this argument that, if these three religions appeared in the same region and they played some role in European history, then they should be considered European. There's really no cultural argument for considering Islamism and Mosaicism European religions, because they never formed a majority in any European territory. Their fiefdom was definitely not in Europe, but elsewhere, in the Arab world, in Turkey, in the Middle East. Jews are a special case, because they had to live in diasporas for centuries. But Jews never considered a European country to be their own, the homebase of their religion. Their religious texts dictate that Israel is their holy land and that's why they created a political movement (Zionism) to recover their lands. If they identified as a European religion, they would have never mounted such a massive effort to recover their lands, plot by plot, and build a country in that barren land.

Also, another argument why I wouldn't place much significance on the fact that Christianism appeared in the Middle East is that, in its early phase, they were a sect that were inspired by a previous ascetic movement, the Essenes, whose faith is speculated to trace its roots in - surprise, surprise - Buddhism. Yep, it's possible that this component of Christianism which urged people to focus on the salvation of their soul and purifying themselves from all material concerns came from an ancient streak of Buddhism that was somehow carried over to the Middle East, among people living in the desert. It wouldn't be the first time when an idea that completely takes over a continent comes from another region, where it wasn't even considered the most important.

After all, both communism and capitalism appeared, in their modern forms, in Europe, and both completely changed China's history and the way they organised their society and economy. That doesn't make China European, though, obviously.
Can I ask you a question: what is Indian culture (as in the culture of the modern Indian state)? Where do you think it comes from? Religion? Society? Economy? When did it originate?

I promise I have a good reason for asking this question. It will help me understand what you're trying to say better.
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Re: Unpopular opinion, should the Ottomans be a European or Asian civilization?

Post by princeofcarthage »

comradecommissar wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:It is not entirely impossible that Christianity, Islam, and Judaism somehow came from Asia specifically Indian subcontinent. After all there is a lot of overlap and these are the things people used to to do for thousands of years before these religions came. Of course it is not possible to demonstrably prove that ideas travelled halfway around the world but it is completely plausible. When we say IVC disappeared it doesn't mean all of a sudden thousands of people disappeared. Some obviously survived and travelled in all directions thus spreading their way of life.
None of these religions came from the Indian subcontinent. Some of them arrived in the subcontinent hundreds, and others even thousands of years after they first started.
Eh that's not possible considering the academically accepted history.
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Re: Unpopular opinion, should the Ottomans be a European or Asian civilization?

Post by comradecommissar »

princeofcarthage wrote:
comradecommissar wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:It is not entirely impossible that Christianity, Islam, and Judaism somehow came from Asia specifically Indian subcontinent. After all there is a lot of overlap and these are the things people used to to do for thousands of years before these religions came. Of course it is not possible to demonstrably prove that ideas travelled halfway around the world but it is completely plausible. When we say IVC disappeared it doesn't mean all of a sudden thousands of people disappeared. Some obviously survived and travelled in all directions thus spreading their way of life.
None of these religions came from the Indian subcontinent. Some of them arrived in the subcontinent hundreds, and others even thousands of years after they first started.
Eh that's not possible considering the academically accepted history.
WHAT? HAHAHA? Are you high or something mate? Like, are you actually high? Im confused about whether your history is wrong or your geography is wrong, but one of them is really wrong.
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Re: Unpopular opinion, should the Ottomans be a European or Asian civilization?

Post by Dolan »

comradecommissar wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:It is not entirely impossible that Christianity, Islam, and Judaism somehow came from Asia specifically Indian subcontinent. After all there is a lot of overlap and these are the things people used to to do for thousands of years before these religions came. Of course it is not possible to demonstrably prove that ideas travelled halfway around the world but it is completely plausible. When we say IVC disappeared it doesn't mean all of a sudden thousands of people disappeared. Some obviously survived and travelled in all directions thus spreading their way of life.
None of these religions came from the Indian subcontinent. Some of them arrived in the subcontinent hundreds, and others even thousands of years after they first started.
There was a religious sect that existed before Christians in the Hellenic world, in Alexandria: the Therapeutae. Their lifestyle has been characterised as Buddhist, they were actually Hellenic Buddhists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutae

Some early Christian writers, from the first centuries (3rd to 5th) identified them as early Christian monks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeut ... pretations

It's not that crazy a hypothesis, considering how much Buddhist ideas spread in the Hellenic world, just a few centuries before Christianism appeared.
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Re: Unpopular opinion, should the Ottomans be a European or Asian civilization?

Post by comradecommissar »

Dolan wrote:
comradecommissar wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:It is not entirely impossible that Christianity, Islam, and Judaism somehow came from Asia specifically Indian subcontinent. After all there is a lot of overlap and these are the things people used to to do for thousands of years before these religions came. Of course it is not possible to demonstrably prove that ideas travelled halfway around the world but it is completely plausible. When we say IVC disappeared it doesn't mean all of a sudden thousands of people disappeared. Some obviously survived and travelled in all directions thus spreading their way of life.
None of these religions came from the Indian subcontinent. Some of them arrived in the subcontinent hundreds, and others even thousands of years after they first started.
There was a religious sect that existed before Christians in the Hellenic world, in Alexandria: the Therapeutae. Their lifestyle has been characterised as Buddhist, they were actually Hellenic Buddhists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutae

Some early Christian writers, from the first centuries (3rd to 5th) identified them as early Christian monks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeut ... pretations

It's not that crazy an hypothesis, considering how much Buddhist ideas spread in the Hellenic world, just a few centuries before Christianism appeared.
What does this have to do with the subcontinent? Whether Buddhism spread from the subcontinent and whether the Abrahamic religions spread from it are two different things.
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Re: Unpopular opinion, should the Ottomans be a European or Asian civilization?

Post by princeofcarthage »

comradecommissar wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Eh that's not possible considering the academically accepted history.
WHAT? HAHAHA? Are you high or something mate? Like, are you actually high? Im confused about whether your history is wrong or your geography is wrong, but one of them is really wrong.
I might have misread after for before.
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Re: Unpopular opinion, should the Ottomans be a European or Asian civilization?

Post by princeofcarthage »

comradecommissar wrote:
Dolan wrote:
Show hidden quotes
There was a religious sect that existed before Christians in the Hellenic world, in Alexandria: the Therapeutae. Their lifestyle has been characterised as Buddhist, they were actually Hellenic Buddhists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutae

Some early Christian writers, from the first centuries (3rd to 5th) identified them as early Christian monks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeut ... pretations

It's not that crazy an hypothesis, considering how much Buddhist ideas spread in the Hellenic world, just a few centuries before Christianism appeared.
What does this have to do with the subcontinent? Whether Buddhism spread from the subcontinent and whether the Abrahamic religions spread from it are two different things.
Considering that Buddhisim (and other subcontinent religions) appeared thousand years (more than that) before christianity, and the overlap (similarity) in concepts and rituals, its isn't far fetched to think ideas might have travelled.
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Re: Unpopular opinion, should the Ottomans be a European or Asian civilization?

Post by comradecommissar »

princeofcarthage wrote:
comradecommissar wrote:
Show hidden quotes
What does this have to do with the subcontinent? Whether Buddhism spread from the subcontinent and whether the Abrahamic religions spread from it are two different things.
Considering that Buddhisim (and other subcontinent religions) appeared thousand years (more than that) before christianity, and the overlap (similarity) in concepts and rituals, its isn't far fetched to think ideas might have travelled.
It is one thing to say certain practices may have been influenced by other religions, and another thing entirely to say that these religions came from the subcontinent.

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