Dutch Openings and Post-Patch MU Discussion Vid

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Dutch Openings and Post-Patch MU Discussion Vid

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Post by I_HaRRiiSoN_I »

Hi Guys



I decided to make a longer video on my thoughts of dutch balance changes, show a new opening and explain how it works and why its so strong i think as well as discussing/showing build variation and discussing pretty much every Match Up dutch has with respect to latest patch notes. This content is probably aimed at the 1200-1700 ELO range mark however i think the Pro scene can still check the build out and discussions to learn some new strats as dutch.

Dont worry im not trying to break into Youtube, just seemed to be an easier think to do than write a long forum thread as compared to start recording without any sense of a script. I think that some people will find this really enjoyable or find it insightful. Many thanks!
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Re: Dutch Openings and Post-Patch MU Discussion Vid

Post by don_artie »

1h30m vid is just too long to go have a casual look at i'm afraid, but i looked through it a bit. I don't think I like the market play, I think you just get your first bank quite a bit later, have way less food when 700w drops, and then slowing down that bank also slows down your xp curve to bank wagon. Then you also have less gold in your mine for later on and wood is already more expensive in the market. It doesn't feel worth the hassle
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Re: Dutch Openings and Post-Patch MU Discussion Vid

Post by I_HaRRiiSoN_I »

yeah its an in depth vid, mainly because i dont want to edit it and get a script together etc. Just record chat and done.

I dont think gold mines is a significant factor for dutch as you never run out on your side of the map its feels like. Also as you can only send 1 shipment at a time if the first 2 banks go up slightly faster with the regular build you cant really send your cards any faster. with treasures your first bank will have completed before age up so there is your XP on time. coupled with an in base would treasure and the build makes even more sense. an extra 1.5 to 2.0 vills in age 2 though is significant and early livestock being eaten will get you to the same bank curve as before and then without having to drop a market later. Theres no right idea to thisso it was nice to just talk and explore. Also at the end is speculating about Match ups which can be skipped i guess
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Re: Dutch Openings and Post-Patch MU Discussion Vid

Post by ssaa22 »

The Dutch don't have to rely heavily on mines in the beginning, so this buff will only show its true value after entering the 3age market and upgrading the market.

In my opinion, this is not a patch that makes the Dutch very strong.
The text may be awkward using a translator, But I hope we can talk a lot about good things. GG
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Re: Dutch Openings and Post-Patch MU Discussion Vid

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Post by Zutazuta »

Did Harrison really just make a 90 min video to tell us Dutch got +10% gold gather rate?
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Re: Dutch Openings and Post-Patch MU Discussion Vid

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Post by Mitoe »

Zutazuta wrote:Did Harrison really just make a 90 min video to tell us Dutch got +10% gold gather rate?
+5%

Which is actually a 4% increase, since the gather rate is already +15%.
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Re: Dutch Openings and Post-Patch MU Discussion Vid

Post by vividlyplain »

ssaa22 wrote:The Dutch don't have to rely heavily on mines in the beginning, so this buff will only show its true value after entering the 3age market and upgrading the market.

In my opinion, this is not a patch that makes the Dutch very strong.
The market techs work off of their base gold gather rate of 0.60/sec.
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Re: Dutch Openings and Post-Patch MU Discussion Vid

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Post by I_HaRRiiSoN_I »

ssaa22 wrote:The Dutch don't have to rely heavily on mines in the beginning, so this buff will only show its true value after entering the 3age market and upgrading the market.

In my opinion, this is not a patch that makes the Dutch very strong.
the extra 5% mining only helps in age 1 and now in transition if using the market strat. I just find that the market gives flexibility as well as making the most out of any treasure you pick up regardless of early age 1 or late age 1.

Dutchs biggest buff this patch is other civs nerfs
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Re: Dutch Openings and Post-Patch MU Discussion Vid

Post by louis293 »

very nice video thanks
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Re: Dutch Openings and Post-Patch MU Discussion Vid

Post by I_HaRRiiSoN_I »

louis293 wrote:very nice video thanks
glad you enjoyed it :)
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Re: Dutch Openings and Post-Patch MU Discussion Vid

Post by Kaiserklein »

Kinda too long to watch it, but I'm assuming it's about getting an age 1 market with HD, and then in transition have vils on coin and food and just buy wood for your bank. In which case I think you're just better off not getting a market to save the resources and get the bank up earlier in transition, which snowballs into getting your 400w and your 700w banks earlier.

On florida since you start with a market, it's probably worth buying wood though.
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Re: Dutch Openings and Post-Patch MU Discussion Vid

Post by I_HaRRiiSoN_I »

Yeah its only market calculations in first part and MU discussion and Build order discussion at the end.

its not like the age up wood or the 700w come any later. Also shipments shouldnt be delayed as your 2nd bank will be built before the 700w comes in on the floor which provides the xp for shipment number 3. I definitely agree with the florida remark and i did this BO on florida for ages, utilising early goats for bank tempo aswell. :) If a bank is delayed only a finite amount of res is lost instead of having a smaller "eco" which we are only talking by apart 5-10 seconds on the first bank? 5 seconds on bank #2 and no delay/earlier banks after?
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Re: Dutch Openings and Post-Patch MU Discussion Vid

Post by Kaiserklein »

Your wood crates don't come later, but I think you don't have the 350f ready for both your 2nd and 3rd bank when the crates spawn. On the one hand, you have a tech which nets you like 100 ish food until early colo, and then the market saves you a very marginal amount of VS when buying wood. On the other hand, you had to invest 150w 50g into it (and possible idle your TC a bit if you got no treasures?).
So you're down by quite a lot of VS in transition, and drop your first bank later. Which means it starts producing coin later, so you have to mine coin for your first colonial vil, on top of the VS loss you already have. Then because you don't have your 350f ready you also delay your next bank and keep losing VS, etc.

Btw you also don't have a "smaller eco" if you delay HD. It's also just a finite loss of res, until you inevitably get the tech. So it all comes down to what loses you more res: delaying HD by a few minutes, or delaying each bank by a few seconds? I suspect that with the snowball effect I described above, delaying banks loses you more res.

But I'll have to try it. Maybe with the combination of the new coin gathering boost, the wood + food start, and a couple treasures, you stack food in time for your banks and going market is a bit more efficient.
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Re: Dutch Openings and Post-Patch MU Discussion Vid

Post by WickedCossack »

@Mitoe did the maths on it a while back showing market start is more villager seconds (this is 1.5 years ago so before DE and this patch), I copy in below.

You need the right age 1 though to ensure the no idle at any point (before and after aging) but assuming you get it then it's just better. Your shipments are not delayed, your 3rd bank is not delayed (should be faster actually.)

The bit I really like is that it works great with a bank wagon start vs aggresive civs as you get the flexibility to trade wood for 1 or even 2 houses. Bank wagon first isn't as popular these days but anytime you're not dropping 2 banks off 700w the bank wagon with market trading generates more villager seconds.

Heck now that I think about it you probably end up with more VS going bank wagon and just buying 400 straight wood against double bank off 700w. Cba to do the math on it but there's no way that's less surely.
Mitoe wrote:
2) It delays your first bank. By the time you construct your bank, you've only earned at best 115 food from getting hunting dogs at the beginning. And this is assuming you've done everything 100% optimally by avoiding gathering any food until your Hunting Dogs comes in and had no food crates or food treasures. Most of the time it will be closer to 90 - 100 food: ~100 food (108 VS) vs the 150w (300VS) and 50c (72 VS) you spent on getting the market and possibly slightly more villager seconds if you had mine to another 25c to convert it into wood. This guarantees that you get a slower bank by almost 300 villager seconds--264 if you want to be exact.

Now I'm no mathematician (I haven't taken math since high school), but I'm pretty sure if you divide the number of villager seconds by the number of villagers you have you can determine roughly how much later you get the bank: 264/15 = 17.6 seconds. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong about this but I'm pretty sure this is correct :hmm:

Anyway, so 17.6*2.75 = 48.4 coin

. . . wait.

Ok so I was wrong about the earlier bank being worth more than the market start--you do actually get more villager seconds going for market start, instead of faster bank followed by market. Good treasures will probably only help the market start here.
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Re: Dutch Openings and Post-Patch MU Discussion Vid

Post by Mitoe »

WickedCossack wrote:@Mitoe did the maths on it a while back showing market start is more villager seconds (this is 1.5 years ago so before DE and this patch), I copy in below.

You need the right age 1 though to ensure the no idle at any point (before and after aging) but assuming you get it then it's just better. Your shipments are not delayed, your 3rd bank is not delayed (should be faster actually.)

The bit I really like is that it works great with a bank wagon start vs aggresive civs as you get the flexibility to trade wood for 1 or even 2 houses. Bank wagon first isn't as popular these days but anytime you're not dropping 2 banks off 700w the bank wagon with market trading generates more villager seconds.

Heck now that I think about it you probably end up with more VS going bank wagon and just buying 400 straight wood against double bank off 700w. Cba to do the math on it but there's no way that's less surely.
Mitoe wrote:
2) It delays your first bank. By the time you construct your bank, you've only earned at best 115 food from getting hunting dogs at the beginning. And this is assuming you've done everything 100% optimally by avoiding gathering any food until your Hunting Dogs comes in and had no food crates or food treasures. Most of the time it will be closer to 90 - 100 food: ~100 food (108 VS) vs the 150w (300VS) and 50c (72 VS) you spent on getting the market and possibly slightly more villager seconds if you had mine to another 25c to convert it into wood. This guarantees that you get a slower bank by almost 300 villager seconds--264 if you want to be exact.

Now I'm no mathematician (I haven't taken math since high school), but I'm pretty sure if you divide the number of villager seconds by the number of villagers you have you can determine roughly how much later you get the bank: 264/15 = 17.6 seconds. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong about this but I'm pretty sure this is correct :hmm:

Anyway, so 17.6*2.75 = 48.4 coin

. . . wait.

Ok so I was wrong about the earlier bank being worth more than the market start--you do actually get more villager seconds going for market start, instead of faster bank followed by market. Good treasures will probably only help the market start here.
The math makes sense but in game it never works for me; I always feel like I'm losing when I go market :P
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Re: Dutch Openings and Post-Patch MU Discussion Vid

Post by I_HaRRiiSoN_I »

Mitoe wrote:
WickedCossack wrote:@Mitoe did the maths on it a while back showing market start is more villager seconds (this is 1.5 years ago so before DE and this patch), I copy in below.

You need the right age 1 though to ensure the no idle at any point (before and after aging) but assuming you get it then it's just better. Your shipments are not delayed, your 3rd bank is not delayed (should be faster actually.)

The bit I really like is that it works great with a bank wagon start vs aggresive civs as you get the flexibility to trade wood for 1 or even 2 houses. Bank wagon first isn't as popular these days but anytime you're not dropping 2 banks off 700w the bank wagon with market trading generates more villager seconds.

Heck now that I think about it you probably end up with more VS going bank wagon and just buying 400 straight wood against double bank off 700w. Cba to do the math on it but there's no way that's less surely.
Mitoe wrote:
2) It delays your first bank. By the time you construct your bank, you've only earned at best 115 food from getting hunting dogs at the beginning. And this is assuming you've done everything 100% optimally by avoiding gathering any food until your Hunting Dogs comes in and had no food crates or food treasures. Most of the time it will be closer to 90 - 100 food: ~100 food (108 VS) vs the 150w (300VS) and 50c (72 VS) you spent on getting the market and possibly slightly more villager seconds if you had mine to another 25c to convert it into wood. This guarantees that you get a slower bank by almost 300 villager seconds--264 if you want to be exact.

Now I'm no mathematician (I haven't taken math since high school), but I'm pretty sure if you divide the number of villager seconds by the number of villagers you have you can determine roughly how much later you get the bank: 264/15 = 17.6 seconds. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong about this but I'm pretty sure this is correct :hmm:

Anyway, so 17.6*2.75 = 48.4 coin

. . . wait.

Ok so I was wrong about the earlier bank being worth more than the market start--you do actually get more villager seconds going for market start, instead of faster bank followed by market. Good treasures will probably only help the market start here.
The math makes sense but in game it never works for me; I always feel like I'm losing when I go market :P
but that is the point where the "sigh i suck" Mitoe evolves into the monster Mitoe and wins those clutch games
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Re: Dutch Openings and Post-Patch MU Discussion Vid

Post by _NT_sven »

One question that I have in mind: After dropping the first bank, you need to gather coin if you don't get a big coin treasure. Would selling food be a better option here? You have HD already so I guess that would be economic enough, and plus you don't have to move like 5 vills to the gold mine?
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Re: Dutch Openings and Post-Patch MU Discussion Vid

Post by andrewgs »

_NT_sven wrote:One question that I have in mind: After dropping the first bank, you need to gather coin if you don't get a big coin treasure. Would selling food be a better option here? You have HD already so I guess that would be economic enough, and plus you don't have to move like 5 vills to the gold mine?
With a coin gather rate of 0.6*1.2 = 0.72 and food gather rate of 0.84*1.1 = 0.924,
the break even price for selling food is 100 * 0.72/0.924 = 78
so you 'lose' a few coin trading f into c, but 'gain' resources from reduced walking time
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Re: Dutch Openings and Post-Patch MU Discussion Vid

Post by Gauix7 »

So i did the math for the dutch opening. is it realy worthed to start with marked and HD

Well after the math its clear HD is 3 sec faster age up

if we look 1 vil on food it takes 952 VS to have 800 food, with the HD start You have 800 food in 905 VS

this means you are 46,94 sec faster with HD and based on 15 vil 46,94/15= 3,13 sec faster age up

i also include 35 sec for build the marked and train HD
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Re: Dutch Openings and Post-Patch MU Discussion Vid

Post by Kaiserklein »

This doesn't take into account the extra 50w 50g you have to gather?
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Re: Dutch Openings and Post-Patch MU Discussion Vid

Post by Gauix7 »

Kaiserklein wrote:This doesn't take into account the extra 50w 50g you have to gather?
Yes i calculate evrything
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Re: Dutch Openings and Post-Patch MU Discussion Vid

Post by Gauix7 »

Btw you can do it even faster by not gather food the first 35 sec + time to pick up 100 wood
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Re: Dutch Openings and Post-Patch MU Discussion Vid

Post by Gauix7 »

@I_HaRRiiSoN_I you test not chopper 100 wood for hd and bank? And straight buy it from market
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Re: Dutch Openings and Post-Patch MU Discussion Vid

Post by I_HaRRiiSoN_I »

Gauix7 wrote:@I_HaRRiiSoN_I you test not chopper 100 wood for hd and bank? And straight buy it from market
i have actually and i like it a lot. the fact of not moving vills around and chopping any early wood, doesnt really slow the age 1 down. You can still take high wood treasures and chop the remainder with 1 or 2 vill in transition, and you a little longer to find and take coin treasures.

the thing is though if you are on a map with lots of wood treasures, like siberia or korea then actually it pushes you back in the direction of standard play and not going market first and just getting a super early bank.

Things which annoy me is players (on twitch) who go market first and then still chop wood in transition is like shooting yourself in both feet and i still dont get why it still happens. for example you can say that florida could be dutchs best map now. buying at the market 3 times gets you all the wood needed for the market HD house and bank, while there being many more food/coin treasures (100f 100c 90c etc) than wood. What i would love to try is a 14vill age up on florida with the market buying and sheep gathering, as this should hopefully not lead into any idle time on that map while benefitting from earlier shipments and banks
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Re: Dutch Openings and Post-Patch MU Discussion Vid

Post by Gauix7 »

No i mean dont chop wood at all. Hd need 50 and a bank need 50, so i toucht biuld a market change coin to wood 1 time make hous and HD in the first 30 sec. Then after click up change 300 again then you perfect wood free. HD is 3 sec faster so how Quick can you make an extra 25 coin to buy the first 100 wood. It May delft your ageup 1 or 2 sec but you no need to chop for a bank because you safe it??

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