Balance discussion

[ssaa22]

It's a personal idea, but most of the balance controversy seems like a value controversy. Some buildings or units have too many features or lack of features for their price. Perhaps the most controversial in that area is the auto-generated building.

I would like to hear from you another opinion on my thoughts.

[Joe]

I think Church should be able to be build in age 1 since u want to build it on a no tp map with civs like germany. The next change i want is the shrines increased form 125 to 130-135 wood. I think Japan didnt got nerfed last batch, but it realy needs a nerf. Remove extra gold again (maybe add 50 food but i would watch out cause of Tori gates) and make shrines higher priced so all eco houses are on a similar price would be fair. Japan still has kami and port con and the 75 wood with that now is just to cheap for a civs that just sits in base... I would love if the explorer get a bit of redesign but i doubt i will happan. Schweden and inca needs vills for eco houses, Japan just sends 2 explorers which is a bonus a lot of people dont consider. also divine strike is gimmiky feature which i highly dislike and should be reworked like the disappear appility which makes no sense to me... Schweden loses a vill for res houses if u try to keep map in check and catch them at a mine, japan just makes "puff" and risks nothing. Maybe remove divine strikes and give higher base stats to explorer would be good for tresure/ general fighting reassons

[knusch]

I think Church should be able to be build in age 1 since u want to build it on a no tp map with civs like germany. The next change i want is the shrines increased form 125 to 130-135 wood. I think Japan didnt got nerfed last batch, but it realy needs a nerf. Remove extra gold again (maybe add 50 food but i would watch out cause of Tori gates) and make shrines higher priced so all eco houses are on a similar price would be fair. Japan still has kami and port con and the 75 wood with that now is just to cheap for a civs that just sits in base... I would love if the explorer get a bit of redesign but i doubt i will happan. Schweden and inca needs vills for eco houses, Japan just sends 2 explorers which is a bonus a lot of people dont consider. also divine strike is gimmiky feature which i highly dislike and should be reworked like the disappear appility which makes no sense to me... Schweden loses a vill for res houses if u try to keep map in check and catch them at a mine, japan just makes "puff" and risks nothing. Maybe remove divine strikes and give higher base stats to explorer would be good for tresure/ general fighting reassons

this just getting ridiculous...

[Joe]

or maybe nerf ashigaru speed to 4 or 4.25. But strong eco and strong units and 50 shipments is just too much ... at top player level it might not be op but at mediocre level its definetly too strong imo

[Joe]

I think Church should be able to be build in age 1 since u want to build it on a no tp map with civs like germany. The next change i want is the shrines increased form 125 to 130-135 wood. I think Japan didnt got nerfed last batch, but it realy needs a nerf. Remove extra gold again (maybe add 50 food but i would watch out cause of Tori gates) and make shrines higher priced so all eco houses are on a similar price would be fair. Japan still has kami and port con and the 75 wood with that now is just to cheap for a civs that just sits in base... I would love if the explorer get a bit of redesign but i doubt i will happan. Schweden and inca needs vills for eco houses, Japan just sends 2 explorers which is a bonus a lot of people dont consider. also divine strike is gimmiky feature which i highly dislike and should be reworked like the disappear appility which makes no sense to me... Schweden loses a vill for res houses if u try to keep map in check and catch them at a mine, japan just makes "puff" and risks nothing. Maybe remove divine strikes and give higher base stats to explorer would be good for tresure/ general fighting reassons

this just getting ridiculous...

than pls tell me your suggestions for changes or do you think japan is fine?

[knusch]

or maybe nerf ashigaru speed to 4 or 4.25. But strong eco and strong units and 50 shipments is just too much ... at top player level it might not be op but at mediocre level its definetly too strong imo

well obvsly i think this approach is nonsense. it has to be balanced around top lvl - thats where balance matters.

than pls tell me your suggestions for changes or do you think japan is fine?

im not convinced that there was any action warranted and in particular not any of the suggested ones to shrines, since u basically dont see shrine booms anymore in the first place. comparing shrines to torps arguing an increase of their cost, i mean come on...

[Mr_Bramboy]

Anyone outside of the top 0.1% of the player base is not qualified to participate in balance discussions. I hope the developers realize this too.

[Joe]

Anyone outside of the top 0.1% of the player base is not qualified to participate in balance discussions. I hope the developers realize this too.

if thats the argument i agree

[Joe]

or maybe nerf ashigaru speed to 4 or 4.25. But strong eco and strong units and 50 shipments is just too much ... at top player level it might not be op but at mediocre level its definetly too strong imo

well obvsly i think this approach is nonsense. it has to be balanced around top lvl - thats where balance matters.

than pls tell me your suggestions for changes or do you think japan is fine?

im not convinced that there was any action warranted and in particular not any of the suggested ones to shrines, since u basically dont see shrine booms anymore in the first place. comparing shrines to torps arguing an increase of their cost, i mean come on...

well 130 wood shrines would slow down Tori builds and nerf the snowball affect a bit imo. or they need to change xp rate back to 1.5

[chronique]

if thats the argument i agree

The argument is more about "when you are not a top player, if you lose, it's probably more because you need to improve your game play rather than a balance issu". When you talk in a specific field (like in science) you care about expert opinion, not about your grandma (unless your grandma is an expert)

The things with japan is more about design (its annoying to play against and its fun to play with, in result there are a lot of japan players and you are annoyed a lot by playing a lot of them), and the feeling about what you like/dislike in a game is a matter of all and all should be listened.

So japan should be rework in a way to make them more "standar", but i have no idea how is that possible.

[n0el]

Expert level balance matters, but lower level quality of life matters, so if there is something that is broken at lower levels and makes the game no fun to play, it needs to be addressed even if it is not an issue at high level.

[shaun]

Anyone outside of the top 0.1% of the player base is not qualified to participate in balance discussions. I hope the developers realize this too.

I'm sorry I have to disagree with this. You're basically shutting off 99.9% of the player base out of discussions on how the game should play. This is extremely exclusive and does not bode well for having a good player base.

[princeofcarthage]

Its astounding how Bram is trying to be a jerk to literally everyone. Looks like pandemic lockdown finally got to his head.

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

Expert level balance matters, but lower level quality of life matters, so if there is something that is broken at lower levels and makes the game no fun to play, it needs to be addressed even if it is not an issue at high level.

Exactly this.

[miggo1999_]

Its astounding how Bram is trying to be a jerk to literally everyone. Looks like pandemic lockdown finally got to his head.

it's astounding how you are gradually becoming the new dontay

[Mr_Bramboy]

Anyone outside of the top 0.1% of the player base is not qualified to participate in balance discussions. I hope the developers realize this too.

I'm sorry I have to disagree with this. You're basically shutting off 99.9% of the player base out of discussions on how the game should play. This is extremely exclusive and does not bode well for having a good player base.

There's a difference between discussing how the game should play and civilization balance. One won't improve how the game should play by suggesting a 5w cost increase on shrines. People can discuss the game and its features all they want - but in my opinion we should leave the civilization balance to those who understand the game the best.

[Goodspeed]

Love how none of the replies is actually on topic.

It's a personal idea, but most of the balance controversy seems like a value controversy. Some buildings or units have too many features or lack of features for their price. Perhaps the most controversial in that area is the auto-generated building.

I would like to hear from you another opinion on my thoughts.

Yes balance is always a discussion about value, in every game. You're always spending resources to get something, and if what you're getting is too cheap or too expensive it's not balanced; You will end up seeing too much or too little of it.

In RTS this is obvious because everything costs resources. In MOBA's we look at cooldown and mana cost for ability balance, and gold cost for item balance. In CS:GO we look at money cost for weapon balance.
It follows that there should always be 2 ways to make a balance change: Change the cost, or the result. (in AoE3 terms, change the cost of a unit or its stats).

[Joe]

if thats the argument i agree

The argument is more about "when you are not a top player, if you lose, it's probably more because you need to improve your game play rather than a balance issu". When you talk in a specific field (like in science) you care about expert opinion, not about your grandma (unless your grandma is an expert)

The things with japan is more about design (its annoying to play against and its fun to play with, in result there are a lot of japan players and you are annoyed a lot by playing a lot of them), and the feeling about what you like/dislike in a game is a matter of all and all should be listened.

So japan should be rework in a way to make them more "standar", but i have no idea how is that possible.

100 % agreed. I face a lot of japan is 1v1 qs and I hate it. Also the shrine Boom is really strong in team games so u just cant look on 1v1 top player balance for that.

[princeofcarthage]

Its astounding how Bram is trying to be a jerk to literally everyone. Looks like pandemic lockdown finally got to his head.

it's astounding how you are gradually becoming the new dontay

How is there even a connection between me and dontay lol. It's like comparing sky to sea.

[ssaa22]

Personally, I think units or buildings that are too high or low value for some price can be nerfed or buffed by changing some of their designs.

For example, it prevents animals from sticking to the shrine and increases the basic efficiency of the shrine. And if the shrine no longer has to collect animals, it will be easier for Japan to protect the shrine. However, due to these design changes, Japan will have a fixed production volume and Ikko will no longer be able to build the shrine. The shrine was designed due to a penalty that Japan cannot hunt. So, wouldn't it be right for the shrine to only generate food? That way, shrine will only be able to generate food.

I think the problem with AOE3 balancing after TAD is trying to make it have everything. One civilization should not have everything. for example, British do not have skirmishers, but instead have archers with a long range, and Germany and the Netherlands cannot train musketeers. Instead, they got something else.

DE's developers aren't interested in the results from the past, appear to have no affection for the game, and are only working on patches that can be recognized for their immediate utility, and are constantly adding new mechanisms for their creations, Sweden and Incas. They fails to solve problems with existing mechanisms, but it keeps inserting strange unauthenticated mechanisms into civilizations and forcing them to do so. Just like feeling amazed at the shrine in Torp and Kancha.

Of course, it is difficult to convince everyone, but they can be try. With respecting the existing mechanisms and not giving them specialties like Chimu or Carols.

[Cry4447]

At the top level, what are the glaring balance issues atm?

[Hazza54321]

increasing shrine cost makes absolutely no sense. The building is less than one vill for 125w whilst torps are 135 for 2/2.5v. What was needed was to slow down the speed of japan builds as 4min age ups with a civ that scales so well is just too good. hence the -100f

[gibson]

Anyone outside of the top 0.1% of the player base is not qualified to participate in balance discussions. I hope the developers realize this too.

Mr_cluelessboy

[Joe]

increasing shrine cost makes absolutely no sense. The building is less than one vill for 125w whilst torps are 135 for 2/2.5v. What was needed was to slow down the speed of japan builds as 4min age ups with a civ that scales so well is just too good. hence the -100f

fair point

[miggo1999_]

Its astounding how Bram is trying to be a jerk to literally everyone. Looks like pandemic lockdown finally got to his head.

it's astounding how you are gradually becoming the new dontay

How is there even a connection between me and dontay lol. It's like comparing sky to sea.

you pick fights in every thread on esoc yet see yourself as the victim (and think people are against you for no reason)...