Balance discussion

[Kaiserklein]

Another connection would be the IQ

[TheNameDaniel]

Anyone outside of the top 0.1% of the player base is not qualified to participate in balance discussions. I hope the developers realize this too.

The peak for the last 24hrs was 2.8k so you're saying only the top 3 players?

[princeofcarthage]

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Its astounding how Bram is trying to be a jerk to literally everyone. Looks like pandemic lockdown finally got to his head.

it's astounding how you are gradually becoming the new dontay

How is there even a connection between me and dontay lol. It's like comparing sky to sea.

you pick fights in every thread on esoc yet see yourself as the victim (and think people are against you for no reason)...

FYI, Bram first started trolling and posting negative posts against me for weeks, probs months now. This is like my first post where I am directly saying anything against Bram, that too legitimately when he is being a jerk. But of course you don't see that, just like you won't see the passive aggressive post of kaiser above and when I say something to him you will act as if I am the bad guy. Such hypocrisy.

[miggo1999_]

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Its astounding how Bram is trying to be a jerk to literally everyone. Looks like pandemic lockdown finally got to his head.

it's astounding how you are gradually becoming the new dontay

How is there even a connection between me and dontay lol. It's like comparing sky to sea.

you pick fights in every thread on esoc yet see yourself as the victim (and think people are against you for no reason)...

FYI, Bram first started trolling and posting negative posts against me for weeks, probs months now. This is like my first post where I am directly saying anything against Bram, that too legitimately when he is being a jerk. But of course you don't see that, just like you won't see the passive aggressive post of kaiser above and when I say something to him you will act as if I am the bad guy. Such hypocrisy.

There is no hipocrisy. I'm not saying bram wasn't a jerk, nor that everybody is treating you in a respectful manner. But again that (largely) is not due to some random hate toward you that came to be out of thin air. In a ton of threads you are saying stuff either directly making enemies, or trying to be funny and then triggering a discussion where you make enemies. Afterward saying something along the lines of 'if hazza said it, you guys would all laugh' reinforcing your sentiment in that everybody else is incorrect. This exact behavior is why your popularity is going down the drain currently. That is all I will say about this, you can either try to see the truth in this and change your behavior, or keep getting disappointed by your own actions.

[miggo1999_]

also bram wasn't even a jerk in his comment lol

[Kaiserklein]

just like you won't see the passive aggressive post of kaiser above and when I say something to him you will act as if I am the bad guy

In my post I was clearly calling you an idiot, how is that passive aggressive

[gibson]

There's not that many passive aggressive people on the forum Tbh, most people here if they think you're a moron will just call you a moron.

[88_Baron_Rojo_88]

Anyone outside of the top 0.1% of the player base is not qualified to participate in balance discussions. I hope the developers realize this too.

ok this 0.1% of top players could contact the game developers somehow? For the rescue of this game they should hire these players for the balance of the civs. What they are doing is just ridiculous ... we need EP in DE? wtf

[princeofcarthage]

just like you won't see the passive aggressive post of kaiser above and when I say something to him you will act as if I am the bad guy

In my post I was clearly calling you an idiot, how is that passive aggressive

But you weren't directly which is why its passive aggressive based on your assumption that dontay is an idiot and by extension me. For all you know dontay could have genius level IQ who is just shitposting for the sake of it.

[Kyo_]

i think germany needs to be buffed. free settler wagon in addition to the free uhlans every shipment, dopps base speed increased to 6, uhlans base hp increased to 200 and attack to 45, and probably a factory in age 3 will make them more viable imo.

should also get an age 4 shipment that resigns the enemy for you for a fair and BALANCED win

[Kaiserklein]

And for all I know you could be a genius who pretends to be a complete moron for the sake of it. Sounds highly unlikely though

[Mr_Bramboy]

Anyone outside of the top 0.1% of the player base is not qualified to participate in balance discussions. I hope the developers realize this too.

The peak for the last 24hrs was 2.8k so you're saying only the top 3 players?

I didn’t actually run the numbers, I just pulled one out of my ass. You’re right, let’s go with 0.2% instead.

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

Anyone outside of the top 0.1% of the player base is not qualified to participate in balance discussions. I hope the developers realize this too.

The peak for the last 24hrs was 2.8k so you're saying only the top 3 players?

I didn’t actually run the numbers, I just pulled one out of my ass. You’re right, let’s go with 0.2% instead.

So Kaiser, Knusch, Hazza, Sam, Mitoe and Kynesie ?

I'm fine with that.

[Jets]

It's a personal idea, but most of the balance controversy seems like a value controversy. Some buildings or units have too many features or lack of features for their price. Perhaps the most controversial in that area is the auto-generated building.

I would like to hear from you another opinion on my thoughts.

Sometimes a mechanic is too strong that the only way to balance it, it's just delaying it by increasing the costs, or reducing the impact, maybe both at the same time.

Is either that or remove/rework it completely.

Still, I think there should be a different patch for treaty games, since some mechanics are very useful and others are just irrelevant. And balancing them always has an impact on 1v1s.

[Efraín]

Anyone outside of the top 0.1% of the player base is not qualified to participate in balance discussions. I hope the developers realize this too.

A good player does not necessarily have to know more about balance than a lower level player as long as the latter has great knowledge of the metagame (although he does not have great skills when applying them) and of the numbers with respect to the resources that the units cost.

And my experience in RTS games tells me that many high level players also look more for their interests so that they do not touch X civilization that they use than for a real balance.

[princeofcarthage]

Anyone outside of the top 0.1% of the player base is not qualified to participate in balance discussions. I hope the developers realize this too.

A good player does not necessarily have to know more about balance than a lower level player as long as the latter has great knowledge of the metagame (although he does not have great skills when applying them) and of the numbers with respect to the resources that the units cost.

And my experience in RTS games tells me that many high level players also look more for their interests so that they do not touch X civilization that they use than for a real balance.

Considering that this has been explained by myself and many other earlier on, I don't think anyone is willing to listen this. Besides from many EP changes the balance bias is pretty clear which gets easily ignored.

[toriancarconn]

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Its astounding how Bram is trying to be a jerk to literally everyone. Looks like pandemic lockdown finally got to his head.

it's astounding how you are gradually becoming the new dontay

How is there even a connection between me and dontay lol. It's like comparing sky to sea.

you pick fights in every thread on esoc yet see yourself as the victim (and think people are against you for no reason)...

FYI, Bram first started trolling and posting negative posts against me for weeks, probs months now. This is like my first post where I am directly saying anything against Bram, that too legitimately when he is being a jerk. But of course you don't see that, just like you won't see the passive aggressive post of kaiser above and when I say something to him you will act as if I am the bad guy. Such hypocrisy.

Bram is not a jerk to everyone. Seen it with my own eyes.

[Kaiserklein]

A good player does not necessarily have to know more about balance than a lower level player as long as the latter has great knowledge of the metagame (although he does not have great skills when applying them) and of the numbers with respect to the resources that the units cost.

And my experience in RTS games tells me that many high level players also look more for their interests so that they do not touch X civilization that they use than for a real balance.

Well, biased high level players who are just trying to get their civs buffed shouldn't be listened to. But realistically in this community most top players aren't trying to do that, but rather to genuinely balance the game.

Anyway, how could low level players, even with great knowledge, know the state of the balance? If you don't have great mechanics to hit and run, skirms and goons become worse compared to musks and huss. If you don't have the mechanics to multitask, raids become stronger. If you don't have the mechanics to defend, rushes become stronger. And so on. That just totally changes the perception of balance. See how aztec apparently has the best winrate in (lower level) ranked games overall, while being considered one of the weaker civs at high level...
So unless that lower level player would constantly watch high level games and be able to draw accurate conclusions out of them, I don't see how that's possible. And even then, watching games is absolutely not the same thing as playing them yourself. And naturally you gain more experience by playing against better players than vs worse players.

[gibson]

Higher level players also have inherent bias that they don’t realize. There’s a reason why in most games pro players aren’t consulted, or necessary, for balance.

[harcha]

Higher level players also have inherent bias that they don’t realize. There’s a reason why in most games pro players aren’t consulted, or necessary, for balance.

Please elaborate

[chronique]

Higher level players also have inherent bias that they don’t realize. There’s a reason why in most games pro players aren’t consulted, or necessary, for balance.

What kind of prejudices are inherent in high-level players?

[Garja]

Balancing for their fav civ

[Kaiserklein]

In "most games" you probably have a large enough player base to have relevant stats + a balance team that really understands the game. That's not how it works in aoe 3.
Anyway, no one is completely unbiased, but I don't think there are people in this community more qualified than top players, when it comes to balancing the game.

[chronique]

Balancing for their fav civ

Which is not inerent to hight players

[Efraín]

A good player does not necessarily have to know more about balance than a lower level player as long as the latter has great knowledge of the metagame (although he does not have great skills when applying them) and of the numbers with respect to the resources that the units cost.

And my experience in RTS games tells me that many high level players also look more for their interests so that they do not touch X civilization that they use than for a real balance.

Well, biased high level players who are just trying to get their civs buffed shouldn't be listened to. But realistically in this community most top players aren't trying to do that, but rather to genuinely balance the game.

Anyway, how could low level players, even with great knowledge, know the state of the balance? If you don't have great mechanics to hit and run, skirms and goons become worse compared to musks and huss. If you don't have the mechanics to multitask, raids become stronger. If you don't have the mechanics to defend, rushes become stronger. And so on. That just totally changes the perception of balance. See how aztec apparently has the best winrate in (lower level) ranked games overall, while being considered one of the weaker civs at high level...
So unless that lower level player would constantly watch high level games and be able to draw accurate conclusions out of them, I don't see how that's possible. And even then, watching games is absolutely not the same thing as playing them yourself. And naturally you gain more experience by playing against better players than vs worse players.

I do not doubt that there are good intentions of many less biased professionals who really want to balance the game, the problem is when the following example occurs (as others may be):

I think I remember (and I don't think it's an invention) that the Uhlans, in an ESOC patch, had 180 hp, a correct nerf, taking into account the seconds it takes a villager to make one and then the seconds it takes a villager to make a hussar (balanced). If we add the extra attack that the uhlan has compared to the hussar, it must be compensated with a nerf a little higher than the HP and 180 was the correct number.

What was the problem with this? A huge river of crying / complaints from several high-level players who had Germany as their main civ. Trying to justify that the nerf was wrong knowing that civilization was Top Tier for the vast majority of professionals, as it is now.

What I mean by this? While a player may be bad at micromanaging, it doesn't mean they don't know the numbers, the cost, how to attack, and the meta.

There are players who are very intelligent in their heads but very clumsy in their hands.

I am not saying that the professionals are not taken into account, they are an important part, but so are those people who really know the high-level game and the numbers and give good ideas even if they are not good players.

I think it is not difficult to understand, there each one.