Blind Civ Showmatch Episode 4 - TheViper vs DauT

[Astaroth]

I think people over estimate how well skills translate, I could see a situation where daut plays 100 qs games and still end up not great

I think skills do translate, but aoe3 has a huge amount of extra stuff that you need to really experience and take in over hundreds of games: shipments, different civ bonuses, timings, game awareness/sense etc. And also just a lot of practice.

So I think someone with Daut's RTS experience and talent could be a great aoe3 player (maybe even the best player), but it would take him a lot of effort.

You can in a way also see this with Samwise. He already played hundreds of games since his return and he used to play this game a LOT, yet he is probably still a bit away from his previous peak.

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

I think skills translate quite well if you really try to learn the game - i.e. Viper could spend a couple hour learning Russia (basic BO + a handful of practice game) and would be able to play at a much higher level than what he did. Focused learning and practice will allow for quick progress for people who already have (super) good RTS fundamentals. Just playing games sending cards randomly is the worst way to get game knowledge.

[gibson]

I think people over estimate how well skills translate, I could see a situation where daut plays 100 qs games and still end up not great

he did play 100 qs games and wasn't great, not sure why people think he'd suddenly be like gua level after 100 more. It would take months of playing hours a day for him to get to that level. I'm sure he could be a top player, but the time frame would be a lot longer than 100 qs games.

[blasdg]

Daut was PR 45 or even higher in vanilla aoe. He WAS good but he was far far away from being amongst the top players back then. So even if he plays 1000 games now I doubt he will ever beat diarouga, Kaiserklein or any really good player from todays era in a competetive BO5. The game is so completely different from back then, literally everything has changed from maps to stats to unit costs to politicians to civs ... you get the point.

[aaryngend]

Daut was PR 45 or even higher in vanilla aoe. He WAS good but he was far far away from being amongst the top players back then. So even if he plays 1000 games now I doubt he will ever beat diarouga, Kaiserklein or any really good player from todays era in a competetive BO5. The game is so completely different from back then, literally everything has changed from maps to stats to unit costs to politicians to civs ... you get the point.

He wasn't at the very top because he didn't play it enough. His main game has always been aoe2 and he stopped playing aoe3 quite early. Aoe3 was like an extended holiday trip to him.

I'm only gonna say this once, but let's say that hypothetically, TheViper would switch to aoe3 and give it his best to become as good as possible, even with all the old players around and active, I would say he would be the #1 player, no questions asked. Yes, even better than grunt.
Same as someone like Serral in SC2.

No one can switch over and just dominate in a couple of weeks, that isn't possible and I think everybody agrees here. They need time and effort and frustration tolerance, things they surely won't put their focus on, so it's all just a theory.

I just don't understand why they didn't put a little more effort into this showmatch, surely he could have watched some VODs and got some nice builds prepared beforehand.
I actually expected them to stream aoe3 like at least once or twice a month after they did so for a while during the release of DE, but I guess that was a pipedream.

[LazarosVas]

Daut was PR 45 or even higher in vanilla aoe. He WAS good but he was far far away from being amongst the top players back then. So even if he plays 1000 games now I doubt he will ever beat diarouga, Kaiserklein or any really good player from todays era in a competetive BO5. The game is so completely different from back then, literally everything has changed from maps to stats to unit costs to politicians to civs ... you get the point.

He wasn't at the very top because he didn't play it enough. His main game has always been aoe2 and he stopped playing aoe3 quite early. Aoe3 was like an extended holiday trip to him.

I'm only gonna say this once, but let's say that hypothetically, TheViper would switch to aoe3 and give it his best to become as good as possible, even with all the old players around and active, I would say he would be the #1 player, no questions asked. Yes, even better than grunt.
Same as someone like Serral in SC2.

No one can switch over and just dominate in a couple of weeks, that isn't possible and I think everybody agrees here. They need time and effort and frustration tolerance, things they surely won't put their focus on, so it's all just a theory.

I just don't understand why they didn't put a little more effort into this showmatch, surely he could have watched some VODs and got some nice builds prepared beforehand.
I actually expected them to stream aoe3 like at least once or twice a month after they did so for a while during the release of DE, but I guess that was a pipedream.

What makes you so confident to say that he will become #1 player if he focused 100% on AOE 3? I think you are underestimating how good top AOE 3 players are.

[gibson]

Daut was PR 45 or even higher in vanilla aoe. He WAS good but he was far far away from being amongst the top players back then. So even if he plays 1000 games now I doubt he will ever beat diarouga, Kaiserklein or any really good player from todays era in a competetive BO5. The game is so completely different from back then, literally everything has changed from maps to stats to unit costs to politicians to civs ... you get the point.

He wasn't at the very top because he didn't play it enough. His main game has always been aoe2 and he stopped playing aoe3 quite early. Aoe3 was like an extended holiday trip to him.

I'm only gonna say this once, but let's say that hypothetically, TheViper would switch to aoe3 and give it his best to become as good as possible, even with all the old players around and active, I would say he would be the #1 player, no questions asked. Yes, even better than grunt.
Same as someone like Serral in SC2.

No one can switch over and just dominate in a couple of weeks, that isn't possible and I think everybody agrees here. They need time and effort and frustration tolerance, things they surely won't put their focus on, so it's all just a theory.

I just don't understand why they didn't put a little more effort into this showmatch, surely he could have watched some VODs and got some nice builds prepared beforehand.
I actually expected them to stream aoe3 like at least once or twice a month after they did so for a while during the release of DE, but I guess that was a pipedream.

What makes you so confident to say that he will become #1 player if he focused 100% on AOE 3? I think you are underestimating how good top AOE 3 players are.

He has more time( video games is his job)and more talent ( he is undesputably the best in a much bigger game). Some people are simply better at video games, I'm not positive that Viper or Daut are super talented, and I don't think that top aoe3 players are particularly untalented, but they certainly aren't cream of the crop esports players either

[blasdg]

These "what if..." things are always a serious sign of really bad arguments.

Viper would be #1? Who knows? What would happen if I played 8h a day for 3 years? Maybe I would be #1? Maybe tabben? Maybe breeze? Who the fuck knows? The top aoe2 players are top aoe2 players because they spend their life playing the game. Nobody was/is even coming close in aoe3 at any given time. The same is true for Daut and aoe3 - what arrogance to say that Daut would have easily been top if he only cared more. What about the thousands of other players that might be 10 times better than Daut, Viper, grunt and simply stopped playing for whatever reason before they had the chance to spend 20k hours on the game?

My lord people these days... what if this happened... but what if that happened... but, but, but....

[blackout]

What's the point of this discussion?

[blasdg]

There is no point. You can argue for hours about "who has more time" and "who has more talent" but it still does not change the reality that we live in. Its completely fruitless.

[gibson]

These "what if..." things are always a serious sign of really bad arguments.

Viper would be #1? Who knows? What would happen if I played 8h a day for 3 years? Maybe I would be #1? Maybe tabben? Maybe breeze? Who the fuck knows? The top aoe2 players are top aoe2 players because they spend their life playing the game. Nobody was/is even coming close in aoe3 at any given time. The same is true for Daut and aoe3 - what arrogance to say that Daut would have easily been top if he only cared more. What about the thousands of other players that might be 10 times better than Daut, Viper, grunt and simply stopped playing for whatever reason before they had the chance to spend 20k hours on the game?

My lord people these days... what if this happened... but what if that happened... but, but, but....

Not really arrogant to think that someone who was top at 1 game could be top at a very similar game if he'd commited the time too it.......in fact some would call it common sense.

[blasdg]

The games are not really similar... especially true for vanilla aoe3. And as I said, it ignores the thousands of other players that might have been just as good as him, as talented as him or even better than him but also didnt put the maximum effort into the game for whatever reason. Arrogance might not have been the best word, I agree.

Anyways, Im out of this discussion - 100% useless anyways

[gibson]

The games are not really similar... especially true for vanilla aoe3. And as I said, it ignores the thousands of other players that might have been just as good as him, as talented as him or even better than him but also didnt put the maximum effort into the game for whatever reason. Arrogance might not have been the best word, I agree.

Anyways, Im out of this discussion - 100% useless anyways

There are thousands, or probably hundreds of thousands of people who could be better u Der the right circumstances, but if you look at the title of the thread you'll see the names "Daut" and "viper", not thousands of hypothetical people.

[RefluxSemantic]

Daut was PR 45 or even higher in vanilla aoe. He WAS good but he was far far away from being amongst the top players back then. So even if he plays 1000 games now I doubt he will ever beat diarouga, Kaiserklein or any really good player from todays era in a competetive BO5. The game is so completely different from back then, literally everything has changed from maps to stats to unit costs to politicians to civs ... you get the point.

He wasn't at the very top because he didn't play it enough. His main game has always been aoe2 and he stopped playing aoe3 quite early. Aoe3 was like an extended holiday trip to him.

I'm only gonna say this once, but let's say that hypothetically, TheViper would switch to aoe3 and give it his best to become as good as possible, even with all the old players around and active, I would say he would be the #1 player, no questions asked. Yes, even better than grunt.
Same as someone like Serral in SC2.

No one can switch over and just dominate in a couple of weeks, that isn't possible and I think everybody agrees here. They need time and effort and frustration tolerance, things they surely won't put their focus on, so it's all just a theory.

I just don't understand why they didn't put a little more effort into this showmatch, surely he could have watched some VODs and got some nice builds prepared beforehand.
I actually expected them to stream aoe3 like at least once or twice a month after they did so for a while during the release of DE, but I guess that was a pipedream.

but if any random decently talented player would focus on aoe3 and give it his best to become as good as possible, I would say he'd be the #1 player, no questions asked. The reality is that all players do it purely as a hobby, so anyone coming in with a professional dedication would hypothetically quickly become the best.

[bobabu]

Daut was PR 45 or even higher in vanilla aoe. He WAS good but he was far far away from being amongst the top players back then. So even if he plays 1000 games now I doubt he will ever beat diarouga, Kaiserklein or any really good player from todays era in a competitive BO5. The game is so completely different from back then, literally, everything has changed from maps to stats to unit costs to politicians to civs ... you get the point.

He wasn't at the very top because he didn't play it enough. His main game has always been aoe2 and he stopped playing aoe3 quite early. Aoe3 was like an extended holiday trip to him.

I'm only gonna say this once, but let's say that hypothetically, TheViper would switch to aoe3 and give it his best to become as good as possible, even with all the old players around and active, I would say he would be the #1 player, no questions asked. Yes, even better than grunt.
Same as someone like Serral in SC2.

No one can switch over and just dominate in a couple of weeks, that isn't possible and I think everybody agrees here. They need time and effort and frustration tolerance, things they surely won't put their focus on, so it's all just a theory.

I just don't understand why they didn't put a little more effort into this showmatch, surely he could have watched some VODs and got some nice builds prepared beforehand.
I actually expected them to stream aoe3 like at least once or twice a month after they did so for a while during the release of DE, but I guess that was a pipedream.

You are nuts. While theviper dominated only one game. Grunt dominated several games in his prime. He was the best player in Aoe 2, Aoe 3 and Rise of the Nations. When there was a bigger player base btw. There aren't many players that can switch as easily between games as Grunt.

[look]

Daut was PR 45 or even higher in vanilla aoe. He WAS good but he was far far away from being amongst the top players back then. So even if he plays 1000 games now I doubt he will ever beat diarouga, Kaiserklein or any really good player from todays era in a competitive BO5. The game is so completely different from back then, literally, everything has changed from maps to stats to unit costs to politicians to civs ... you get the point.

He wasn't at the very top because he didn't play it enough. His main game has always been aoe2 and he stopped playing aoe3 quite early. Aoe3 was like an extended holiday trip to him.

I'm only gonna say this once, but let's say that hypothetically, TheViper would switch to aoe3 and give it his best to become as good as possible, even with all the old players around and active, I would say he would be the #1 player, no questions asked. Yes, even better than grunt.
Same as someone like Serral in SC2.

No one can switch over and just dominate in a couple of weeks, that isn't possible and I think everybody agrees here. They need time and effort and frustration tolerance, things they surely won't put their focus on, so it's all just a theory.

I just don't understand why they didn't put a little more effort into this showmatch, surely he could have watched some VODs and got some nice builds prepared beforehand.
I actually expected them to stream aoe3 like at least once or twice a month after they did so for a while during the release of DE, but I guess that was a pipedream.

You are nuts. While theviper dominated only one game. Grunt dominated several games in his prime. He was the best player in Aoe 2, Aoe 3 and Rise of the Nations. When there was a bigger player base btw. There aren't many players that can switch as easily between games as Grunt.

Definitely Grunt is a GOD in the history..

[[Armag] diarouga]

If a very talented player spent 5 years tryharding aoe3, he would become the best, agreed. However, I don't believe that a sc2 or aoe2 pro tryharding even one year would become the best aoe3 player, that's like saying a GO champion would easily reach GM at chess.
RTS games are different and while being very good at one game helps, you need a lot of practice to master a game, regardless of talent.

[aaryngend]

You are nuts. While theviper dominated only one game. Grunt dominated several games in his prime. He was the best player in Aoe 2, Aoe 3 and Rise of the Nations. When there was a bigger player base btw. There aren't many players that can switch as easily between games as Grunt.

Who is 'arranged'? Certainly not me (did it autocorrect my name?).
The bold part is definitely not true.
How many different games someone dominates doesn't matter. Grunt was forced to switch games from time to time because there wasn't really a pro scene back then. Why would TheViper switch if he makes so much money with aoe2 alone? He also only started tryharding RTS from 2011 or 2010 onwards.
Also.. Grunt did NOT dominate aoe2... at least not the same way he did in aoe3. He was one of the best but clearly not the best aoe2 player.. several people were rated higher than him. Ask around the community and most people will tell you the same. I have two friends who are high-ranked aoe2 players.
His name is only so far up the lists because he won that one very high-prized tournament in 2001 or so, putting him on top of the $$$ ratings for a couple of years because alas, there haven't been any high-tier tournaments after that for a long ass time.

If a very talented player spent 5 years tryharding aoe3, he would become the best, agreed. However, I don't believe that a sc2 or aoe2 pro tryharding even one year would become the best aoe3 player, that's like saying a GO champion would easily reach GM at chess.
RTS games are different and while being very good at one game helps, you need a lot of practice to master a game, regardless of talent.

Tell that to Samwise, who got on top level in pretty much every game he tried (LoL, SC2 though he barely played SC2 but it was enough to hit GM). We might make an argument for LoL though as the real pro play lies in teams and not SoloQ rating.
Some people, despite being skilled at one game, fail to switch to a similar game and have roughly the same success while others are good in pretty much anything.

5 years is a little too safe, I would say 1.5 years are totally enough. That's how long it took the TheViper to become good and that is the same number that Mardow used in aoe3.
There was a low GM player in SC2 who was on the same level in LoL as me Go figure. Might be bit a more of an extreme example.

[gibson]

Some people are just talented at games. Psalm was pro at Heroes of the Storm, Fortnite, and Valorant, 3 completely different games, over the period of like 4 years. Each of those games way more competitive than aoe3. I'm sure someone who was good at games, playing full time, could be a top player in less than a year.

[bwinner]

Some people are just talented at games. Psalm was pro at Heroes of the Storm, Fortnite, and Valorant, 3 completely different games, over the period of like 4 years. Each of those games way more competitive than aoe3. I'm sure someone who was good at games, playing full time, could be a top player in less than a year.

He begun all of this game from when they were launched, so he didn't have a disadvantage compared with other top players (he even had a big advantage from his previous games experience), while in aoe3 he would need to close a 20k game gap with the current top players.
If he plays as a professional full time aoe3, maybe someone like viper could make it, but for someone who plays only casually like other aoe3 players, it would probably take more than 1 year Imo.

[bobabu]

You are nuts. While theviper dominated only one game. Grunt dominated several games in his prime. He was the best player in Aoe 2, Aoe 3 and Rise of the Nations. When there was a bigger player base btw. There aren't many players that can switch as easily between games as Grunt.

Who is 'arranged'? Certainly not me (did it autocorrect my name?).
The bold part is definitely not true.
How many different games someone dominates doesn't matter. Grunt was forced to switch games from time to time because there wasn't really a pro scene back then. Why would TheViper switch if he makes so much money with aoe2 alone? He also only started tryharding RTS from 2011 or 2010 onwards.
Also.. Grunt did NOT dominate aoe2... at least not the same way he did in aoe3. He was one of the best but clearly not the best aoe2 player.. several people were rated higher than him. Ask around the community and most people will tell you the same. I have two friends who are high-ranked aoe2 players.
His name is only so far up the lists because he won that one very high-prized tournament in 2001 or so, putting him on top of the $$$ ratings for a couple of years because alas, there haven't been any high-tier tournaments after that for a long ass time.

If a very talented player spent 5 years tryharding aoe3, he would become the best, agreed. However, I don't believe that a sc2 or aoe2 pro tryharding even one year would become the best aoe3 player, that's like saying a GO champion would easily reach GM at chess.
RTS games are different and while being very good at one game helps, you need a lot of practice to master a game, regardless of talent.

Tell that to Samwise, who got on top level in pretty much every game he tried (LoL, SC2 though he barely played SC2 but it was enough to hit GM). We might make an argument for LoL though as the real pro play lies in teams and not SoloQ rating.
Some people, despite being skilled at one game, fail to switch to a similar game and have roughly the same success while others are good in pretty much anything.

5 years is a little too safe, I would say 1.5 years are totally enough. That's how long it took the TheViper to become good and that is the same number that Mardow used in aoe3.
There was a low GM player in SC2 who was on the same level in LoL as me Go figure. Might be bit a more of an extreme example.

Yes, it autocorrected it. Anyways the game was competitive back then also. Besides people like Daut also try harder at rise of the nations for example. And Daut stood no chance against Grunt in rise of the nations. And that's the player who won the recent Red Bull wololo 3. I think grunt even at his advanced age could still be a serious competitor. Just look at world clan league 7.

[aaryngend]

Yes, it autocorrected it. Anyways the game was competitive back then also. Besides people like Daut also try harder at rise of the nations for example. And Daut stood no chance against Grunt in rise of the nations. And that's the player who won the recent Red Bull wololo 3. I think grunt even at his advanced age could still be a serious competitor. Just look at world clan league 7.

DauT is unDauTedly ( ) the bigger legend in aoe2, he was also active for far longer and never strayed away from it, maybe that helped. I don't think many ppl took Rise of Nations that serious, there was one big tourney and that's it, everybody went back to aoe. Grunt and advanced age? I looked it up, and between Grunt and DauT lies only about 2 years. Daut being born 1985 and Grunt 1983.

[bobabu]

Yes, it autocorrected it. Anyways the game was competitive back then also. Besides people like Daut also try harder at rise of the nations for example. And Daut stood no chance against Grunt in rise of the nations. And that's the player who won the recent Red Bull wololo 3. I think grunt even at his advanced age could still be a serious competitor. Just look at world clan league 7.

DauT is unDauTedly ( ) the bigger legend in aoe2, he was also active for far longer and never strayed away from it, maybe that helped. I don't think many ppl took Rise of Nations that serious, there was one big tourney and that's it, everybody went back to aoe. Grunt and advanced age? I looked it up, and between Grunt and DauT lies only about 2 years. Daut being born 1985 and Grunt 1983.

Daut is also old for esports. He can't win mechanically anymore.

[Astaroth]

5 years is a little too safe, I would say 1.5 years are totally enough. That's how long it took the TheViper to become good and that is the same number that Mardow used in aoe3.

What do you mean by this part? Just curious because I remember that name fron legacy.

[aaryngend]

He said that it took him roughly 1.5 years to go from a beginner to a competitive player in aoe3.
He was one of the nicest if not the nicest german player who actually talked to beginners about his experiences in aoe3 and later sc2.