Toughts on moving Aztec 3 War Priest to age 1?

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Toughts on moving Aztec 3 War Priest to age 1?

Post by klonko »

I feel like it would help kick start the plaza so much and also help aztec "eco" so much if you could send it during age up (or earlier if you have alot of xp) abit like USA does. One reason against would be the military shipment flood, but like they still take 40 sec and cost lots of pop so you have to invest alot in house.

It could be a 2 wp infinite shipment age 1 added, or a buff to 3 WP card age 2 to like 4 WP also. I feel like this quick balance could improve the aztec idendity aka war priest and plaza to be better at that specific thing since at the moment it is quite underwhelming.

What do you think? :smile:
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Re: Toughts on moving Aztec 3 War Priest to age 1?

Post by Le Hussard sur le toit »

I think buffing Aztecs by buffing their plaza could be cool. Possibilities include buffing fertility and healing dance (eco advantage), having a dance to buff gather rates or making units trained at the plaza arrived at the shipment point (tactical advantage).
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Re: Toughts on moving Aztec 3 War Priest to age 1?

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Post by Garja »

Moving the card to age1 is not useful because you can't dance for priests in age1. Bear in mind sending 3WP in age1 to get more shipments for the rush is a flawed reasoning. No TPs or WPs or anything in the game compensates the xp of a shipment in the first minutes of the game. Most of this stuff just breaks even and instead provides a different bonus (e.g. ATP allow stagecoach strats to get big eco).

What would help instead is to allow the WP dance in age1 in order to start the WP boom earlier with 10 vills on the firepit. That way I could age with the war hut politician (+250w) while retaining the full potential of the WP and then choose whether to take advantage or not of the fast age up to reach the 3rd age. I can see this being perhaps too strong, but considering that starting the WP dance from just 1 WP takes forever it might be ok. My guess is that the xp curve would be pretty much the same as dropping a TP in transition and sending 3WPs without dancing for 10 (which is what I was doing with the age up time buff) but in addition to that you eventually get 10WPs for attack dance an the other stuff.
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Re: Toughts on moving Aztec 3 War Priest to age 1?

Post by Le Hussard sur le toit »

Yeah being able to dance for WP in transition seems like a good idea.
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Re: Toughts on moving Aztec 3 War Priest to age 1?

Post by Astaroth »

Le Hussard sur le toit wrote:I think buffing Aztecs by buffing their plaza could be cool. Possibilities include buffing fertility and healing dance (eco advantage), having a dance to buff gather rates or making units trained at the plaza arrived at the shipment point (tactical advantage).
This is a really cool idea.

I love the idea of Aztecs as a civ, but atm they just seem so lackluster, not just balance wise. Their weak eco and relatively weak units (at least their maces/slingers) essentially eternally doom them to a forever all-in civ.

It would be amazing if they had be a bit more depth: booming/turtling/techning options, different playstyles, actually going age3 etc.

Maybe it would be possible to give their maces/slingers an immediate +2 range upon reaching age3 and/or a free/auto upgrade to veteran? Going for an FF or any sort of age3 play with Aztec just seems so weak when you need to up all your age2 units and still have a quite weak roster.
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Re: Toughts on moving Aztec 3 War Priest to age 1?

Post by klonko »

Garja wrote:Moving the card to age1 is not useful because you can't dance for priests in age1. Bear in mind sending 3WP in age1 to get more shipments for the rush is a flawed reasoning. No TPs or WPs or anything in the game compensates the xp of a shipment in the first minutes of the game. Most of this stuff just breaks even and instead provides a different bonus (e.g. ATP allow stagecoach strats to get big eco).

What would help instead is to allow the WP dance in age1 in order to start the WP boom earlier with 10 vills on the firepit. That way I could age with the war hut politician (+250w) while retaining the full potential of the WP and then choose whether to take advantage or not of the fast age up to reach the 3rd age. I can see this being perhaps too strong, but considering that starting the WP dance from just 1 WP takes forever it might be ok. My guess is that the xp curve would be pretty much the same as dropping a TP in transition and sending 3WPs without dancing for 10 (which is what I was doing with the age up time buff) but in addition to that you eventually get 10WPs for attack dance an the other stuff.
I had the same idea coupled with the 3 wp age 1 to really kick start it. But it might be too OP?

My reasoning for 3 wp age 1 is really just to take advantage of the fact that you can go for fertility as soon as you age up which could help vs certain matchup. You still gain X seconds more depending when you send them in age 1 and your age up time to start doing the WP boom. Atm you need to wait 40 sec for your 3 WP after age up to kick start the WP boom. You can start at increased rate earlier this way. Also, it does not only help going faster trough your shipment and build, it can also add an extra 8ish% dmg with wardance during early trade. 4 WP is a whole lot more than just 4 TP xp trickle to aztec.
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Re: Toughts on moving Aztec 3 War Priest to age 1?

Post by klonko »

Le Hussard sur le toit wrote:I think buffing Aztecs by buffing their plaza could be cool. Possibilities include buffing fertility and healing dance (eco advantage), having a dance to buff gather rates or making units trained at the plaza arrived at the shipment point (tactical advantage).
Atm, Healing dance desperately need to be change because it soooo USELESS... It is usable in forteress age while it is only really useful in discovery for healing your WP without moving it near the plaza to get healed by the WP. But like after that I don't see any use for this dance. Sure healing damaged units is good but you know, thats why every other civ uses priest and surgeron right? Requiring units to be idling is bad also, it cannot heal damaged villager while gathering. Overall a rework of this dance would benefit aztec.

I think fertility is good for what it does. It has the advantage of "booming" villagers as well as quickly going trough stockpile of resources if need be.
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Re: Toughts on moving Aztec 3 War Priest to age 1?

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Post by lordraphael »

klonko wrote:
Le Hussard sur le toit wrote:I think buffing Aztecs by buffing their plaza could be cool. Possibilities include buffing fertility and healing dance (eco advantage), having a dance to buff gather rates or making units trained at the plaza arrived at the shipment point (tactical advantage).
Atm, Healing dance desperately need to be change because it soooo USELESS... It is usable in forteress age while it is only really useful in discovery for healing your WP without moving it near the plaza to get healed by the WP. But like after that I don't see any use for this dance. Sure healing damaged units is good but you know, thats why every other civ uses priest and surgeron right? Requiring units to be idling is bad also, it cannot heal damaged villager while gathering. Overall a rework of this dance would benefit aztec.

I think fertility is good for what it does. It has the advantage of "booming" villagers as well as quickly going trough stockpile of resources if need be.
probably let it heal at a slow rate while not requiring them to be idle would be interesting
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Re: Toughts on moving Aztec 3 War Priest to age 1?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Garja wrote:Moving the card to age1 is not useful because you can't dance for priests in age1.
I mean, I wouldn't say it's "not useful". It would be a huge buff for any WP boom build, even if you can start dancing only upon colonial.
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Re: Toughts on moving Aztec 3 War Priest to age 1?

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Post by Aizamk »

lordraphael wrote:
klonko wrote:
Le Hussard sur le toit wrote:I think buffing Aztecs by buffing their plaza could be cool. Possibilities include buffing fertility and healing dance (eco advantage), having a dance to buff gather rates or making units trained at the plaza arrived at the shipment point (tactical advantage).
Atm, Healing dance desperately need to be change because it soooo USELESS... It is usable in forteress age while it is only really useful in discovery for healing your WP without moving it near the plaza to get healed by the WP. But like after that I don't see any use for this dance. Sure healing damaged units is good but you know, thats why every other civ uses priest and surgeron right? Requiring units to be idling is bad also, it cannot heal damaged villager while gathering. Overall a rework of this dance would benefit aztec.

I think fertility is good for what it does. It has the advantage of "booming" villagers as well as quickly going trough stockpile of resources if need be.
probably let it heal at a slow rate while not requiring them to be idle would be interesting
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Re: Toughts on moving Aztec 3 War Priest to age 1?

Post by Garja »

Healing dance is op, idk what you guys talking about. Having your whole army restore full hp is like a huge eco bonus. I've took advantage of it so many times, especially when laming full ERK because it makes them incredibly strong AND cost efficient.
Fertility dance right off the bat is actually not great. Early on shipments > few extra vills. The marginal extra eco you get from fertility takes forever to pay off and eco isn't even a strategic element of weakness/strenght that makes Aztec competitive or not. Fertility is good later on when you have already an eco that can support a quick boom such as 2 dock boom or 2 TC boom.
For example there was a point I was testing all the possible builds in age2 out of max greed with 10WPs 5+4v and then fertility dance. You get insane eco of the likes of Brits at around the same time (10 minutes it reall kicks in) however the problem there is that you have zero map control and hunts are the cap. I tried to fix that by sending 2 farm card+upgrades but it still doesn't cut it because one of Aztec unit in age2 is incredibly food heavy and because 2-3 shipments just to have steady food income is too much even for a xp friendly civ like Aztecs. And because Aztecs units are overall fragile and have short range+short LOS+ you always need a mix of them (usually need reinforcement to trade well) you basically can't defend exposed resources without an estabilished FB.

4WP in age1 is surely a buff, but kind of a marginal one. Most of times, without xp treasures or similar, your 2nd shipment isn't available much sooner than when you hit the age up with the fast age. It is however useful with the WH age up, that's true.
For example I could do 3v 3wp 700w 5v 600g etc. semi FF and have those WP come before 700w. That marginally improves the efficiency of the build both in terms of eco (earlier 5v) and in terms of shipment progression (600w after 600g is actually quite important). I'd like to test it for sure.
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Re: Toughts on moving Aztec 3 War Priest to age 1?

Post by spadel »

Garja wrote:Moving the card to age1 is not useful because you can't dance for priests in age1. Bear in mind sending 3WP in age1 to get more shipments for the rush is a flawed reasoning. No TPs or WPs or anything in the game compensates the xp of a shipment in the first minutes of the game. Most of this stuff just breaks even and instead provides a different bonus (e.g. ATP allow stagecoach strats to get big eco).

What would help instead is to allow the WP dance in age1 in order to start the WP boom earlier with 10 vills on the firepit. That way I could age with the war hut politician (+250w) while retaining the full potential of the WP and then choose whether to take advantage or not of the fast age up to reach the 3rd age. I can see this being perhaps too strong, but considering that starting the WP dance from just 1 WP takes forever it might be ok. My guess is that the xp curve would be pretty much the same as dropping a TP in transition and sending 3WPs without dancing for 10 (which is what I was doing with the age up time buff) but in addition to that you eventually get 10WPs for attack dance an the other stuff.
Sending 3 WP after 3 vils is very useful imo, you don't have to wait for the WP shipment in age 2 and can send immediately 5 vils instead while already dancing for WP. I think it would snowball quickly, probably be OP tbh
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Re: Toughts on moving Aztec 3 War Priest to age 1?

Post by Hazza54321 »

yeah was gonna say it sounds pretty insane
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Re: Toughts on moving Aztec 3 War Priest to age 1?

Post by Garja »

Ye, I changed my mind about that, it's useful for sure, I wouldn't call it insane tho. The fact you can't dance for WPs is the cap.
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Re: Toughts on moving Aztec 3 War Priest to age 1?

Post by klonko »

spadel wrote:
Garja wrote:Moving the card to age1 is not useful because you can't dance for priests in age1. Bear in mind sending 3WP in age1 to get more shipments for the rush is a flawed reasoning. No TPs or WPs or anything in the game compensates the xp of a shipment in the first minutes of the game. Most of this stuff just breaks even and instead provides a different bonus (e.g. ATP allow stagecoach strats to get big eco).

What would help instead is to allow the WP dance in age1 in order to start the WP boom earlier with 10 vills on the firepit. That way I could age with the war hut politician (+250w) while retaining the full potential of the WP and then choose whether to take advantage or not of the fast age up to reach the 3rd age. I can see this being perhaps too strong, but considering that starting the WP dance from just 1 WP takes forever it might be ok. My guess is that the xp curve would be pretty much the same as dropping a TP in transition and sending 3WPs without dancing for 10 (which is what I was doing with the age up time buff) but in addition to that you eventually get 10WPs for attack dance an the other stuff.
Sending 3 WP after 3 vils is very useful imo, you don't have to wait for the WP shipment in age 2 and can send immediately 5 vils instead while already dancing for WP. I think it would snowball quickly, probably be OP tbh
OP comparing by what we have now (cause atm its shit :ugly: ) or game breaking?

On another note I have a hard time understanding what it implies. You are doing a full 10 WP with vills or without them (aka only 4 WP)? Do you mind if you explain your tought like I'm a dummy? I just want know if we have the same thought process on this!
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Re: Toughts on moving Aztec 3 War Priest to age 1?

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Garja wrote: For example there was I point I was testing all the possible builds in age2 out of max greed with 10WPs 5+4v and then fertility dance. You get insane eco of the likes of Brits at around the same time (10 minutes it reall kicks in) however the problem there is that you have zero map control and hunts are the cap. I tried to fix that by sending 2 farm card+upgrades but it still doesn't cut it because one of Aztec unit in age2 is incredibly food heavy and because 2-3 shipments just to have steady food income is too much even for a xp friendly civ like Aztecs.
I wonder if there would be a way to balance Aztec around making an early fertility dance boom good. If lack of food + needing map control is the problem, what if they had bison (more like tapir or turkey) cards like Lakota, or a medium food trickle like foreign logging, but for food?
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Re: Toughts on moving Aztec 3 War Priest to age 1?

Post by klonko »

Squamiger wrote:
Garja wrote: For example there was I point I was testing all the possible builds in age2 out of max greed with 10WPs 5+4v and then fertility dance. You get insane eco of the likes of Brits at around the same time (10 minutes it reall kicks in) however the problem there is that you have zero map control and hunts are the cap. I tried to fix that by sending 2 farm card+upgrades but it still doesn't cut it because one of Aztec unit in age2 is incredibly food heavy and because 2-3 shipments just to have steady food income is too much even for a xp friendly civ like Aztecs.
I wonder if there would be a way to balance Aztec around making an early fertility dance boom good. If lack of food + needing map control is the problem, what if they had bison (more like tapir or turkey) cards like Lakota, or a medium food trickle like foreign logging, but for food?
Or lower villager cost while in fertility boom by like 5-10 :ugly: . It's not a porto at 75f and + 5% food collection. Especially since aztec doesn't have steel traps. It could add some boomy playstyle for lakota and haude but much later than aztec too.
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Re: Toughts on moving Aztec 3 War Priest to age 1?

Post by Le Hussard sur le toit »

Squamiger wrote:
Garja wrote: For example there was I point I was testing all the possible builds in age2 out of max greed with 10WPs 5+4v and then fertility dance. You get insane eco of the likes of Brits at around the same time (10 minutes it reall kicks in) however the problem there is that you have zero map control and hunts are the cap. I tried to fix that by sending 2 farm card+upgrades but it still doesn't cut it because one of Aztec unit in age2 is incredibly food heavy and because 2-3 shipments just to have steady food income is too much even for a xp friendly civ like Aztecs.
I wonder if there would be a way to balance Aztec around making an early fertility dance boom good. If lack of food + needing map control is the problem, what if they had bison (more like tapir or turkey) cards like Lakota, or a medium food trickle like foreign logging, but for food?
Yeah, MORE civs that don't need map control is EXACTLY what this game needs atm.
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Re: Toughts on moving Aztec 3 War Priest to age 1?

Post by Squamiger »

Le Hussard sur le toit wrote:
Squamiger wrote:
Garja wrote: For example there was I point I was testing all the possible builds in age2 out of max greed with 10WPs 5+4v and then fertility dance. You get insane eco of the likes of Brits at around the same time (10 minutes it reall kicks in) however the problem there is that you have zero map control and hunts are the cap. I tried to fix that by sending 2 farm card+upgrades but it still doesn't cut it because one of Aztec unit in age2 is incredibly food heavy and because 2-3 shipments just to have steady food income is too much even for a xp friendly civ like Aztecs.
I wonder if there would be a way to balance Aztec around making an early fertility dance boom good. If lack of food + needing map control is the problem, what if they had bison (more like tapir or turkey) cards like Lakota, or a medium food trickle like foreign logging, but for food?
Yeah, MORE civs that don't need map control is EXACTLY what this game needs atm.
lol yea. well the other problem is that this thread started by saying, "lets buff aztecs bc USA gets this earlier card bonus" instead of saying, "maybe the USA early card bonus is out of line with other civs and we should scale it back to prevent power creep in general."

tbh, I don't think a food trickle will really mean you won't need map control as Aztec. India and Russia and China use trickles and no one says they dont need map control.
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Re: Toughts on moving Aztec 3 War Priest to age 1?

Post by Le Hussard sur le toit »

Well India and Russia use trickles for wood, not for food. Anyway Aztecs need late game scaling, not early game eco.
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Re: Toughts on moving Aztec 3 War Priest to age 1?

Post by Squamiger »

Le Hussard sur le toit wrote:Well India and Russia use trickles for wood, not for food. Anyway Aztecs need late game scaling, not early game eco.
india uses a wood trickle to produce villagers though, I could see giving aztec a food trickle for their vills too
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Re: Toughts on moving Aztec 3 War Priest to age 1?

Post by Garja »

Aside from the balance concern of the lack of map control, adding bisons or vill cost discount/food gathering bonus are just bad design addition to the Aztecs (and in general in the 2nd case). If anything buff farms in some additional way, perhaps taking off something from the farm age up or the gathering boost cards. Idk maybe a special big button at the house (instead of the mace BB which is rarely useful) that gives a big farm gathering boost. Or maybe simply add a +10% on the 2 farm card.
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Re: Toughts on moving Aztec 3 War Priest to age 1?

Post by klonko »

Squamiger wrote:
Le Hussard sur le toit wrote:Well India and Russia use trickles for wood, not for food. Anyway Aztecs need late game scaling, not early game eco.
india uses a wood trickle to produce villagers though, I could see giving aztec a food trickle for their vills too
Instead of sending a food trickle which usually is not good because of market upgrade and you can now already send 2 infinite vills in age 1 which is better. I'm basing my though on the colbertism card (the already existing food trickle) which is 1.5f trickle which is worst than 2 vills with hunting dog.
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Re: Toughts on moving Aztec 3 War Priest to age 1?

Post by Garja »

Le Hussard sur le toit wrote:Well India and Russia use trickles for wood, not for food. Anyway Aztecs need late game scaling, not early game eco.
What do you mean with lategame scaling, because when Aztecs are maxed they're actually quite good. With farm age to industrial and the 20% card (+ atleast another 15% for farm) their eco is basically on TAD civs level. The units are good even tho they lack a proper siege unit and don't have a long range infantry either.
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Re: Toughts on moving Aztec 3 War Priest to age 1?

Post by iron_turtle »

How would replacing two farms age up with a farm and an estate be? It would be helpful for early gold ups.

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