Is Dhaka a competitive map?

[deleted_user]

What do you think about dhaka being a competitive map or not? discuss below

Moderator edit: User has been banned for hating dhaka

[Youssef]

a map with 2 or 3 civs being able to play at highlevel cant be a competitive map

[_NT_sven]

a map with 2 or 3 civs being able to play at highlevel cant be a competitive map

Except it's how exactly the high-level competition works :(

[Abrahamburgerlincon]

You forgot to add “no, it’s just the same as New England”
You have yes it’s just the same as New England, clearly your baised towards New England

[Kaiserklein]

Well I legit can't recall a very good / top player saying that map was good, I think that says a lot about it

[Mitoe]

I think the map is cool and unique, but water and pond balance isn’t there yet, so it’s hard to say that it’s fair.

For tournaments, only a small percentage of the 17 civs are viable on this map, whereas if that number were 10+ I think it would be decent.

[gibson]

How many civs are viable? Otto, india, port, spain, probably inca and jap?

[princeofcarthage]

Every map is competitive if you play according to the map. But if you are hell bent on doing semi ff skirm goon every game then idk. Playing germany on dhaka is like invading russia in winter and then wondering why we lost ww2.

[Mitoe]

How many civs are viable? Otto, india, port, spain, probably inca and jap?

Personally, I think with optimal play the only viable civs might be Spain and Port. Could be wrong, though.

Every map is competitive if you play according to the map. But if you are hell bent on doing semi ff skirm goon every game then idk. Playing germany on dhaka is like invading russia in winter and then wondering why we lost ww2.

Agree with the first part, but I think in an ideal world even a civ like Germany would be playable on Dhaka.

[princeofcarthage]

Every map is competitive if you play according to the map. But if you are hell bent on doing semi ff skirm goon every game then idk. Playing germany on dhaka is like invading russia in winter and then wondering why we lost ww2.

Agree with the first part, but I think in an ideal world even a civ like Germany would be playable on Dhaka.

Agreed that most civs should be playable on most maps (if out of 17 one or two have very bad water gameplay that's fine) but I am strictly speaking in terms of whats the current situation. You had the chance to do it with EP. (Not you in general the whole EP team) But unfortunately none of you listened at the time and couldn't do with what you just agree.

[callentournies]

Every map is competitive if you play according to the map. But if you are hell bent on doing semi ff skirm goon every game then idk. Playing germany on dhaka is like invading russia in winter and then wondering why we lost ww2.

Agree with the first part, but I think in an ideal world even a civ like Germany would be playable on Dhaka.

Agreed that most civs should be playable on most maps (if out of 17 one or two have very bad water gameplay that's fine) but I am strictly speaking in terms of whats the current situation. You had the chance to do it with EP. (Not you in general the whole EP team) But unfortunately none of you listened at the time and couldn't do with what you just agree.

stfu

[lordraphael]

Every map is competitive if you play according to the map. But if you are hell bent on doing semi ff skirm goon every game then idk. Playing germany on dhaka is like invading russia in winter and then wondering why we lost ww2.

you complain about skirm goon semi ff and thne you pick germany who doesnt even have goons as an example. Well done. Besides, how would you revolutionize german gameplay so that they can be competitive on a map like dhaka ?

[lordraphael]

Every map is competitive if you play according to the map. But if you are hell bent on doing semi ff skirm goon every game then idk. Playing germany on dhaka is like invading russia in winter and then wondering why we lost ww2.

you complain about skirm goon semi ff and thne you pick germany who doesnt even have goons as an example. Well done. Besides, how would you revolutionize german gameplay so that they can be competitive on a map like dhaka ?

[Miyawaki Sakura]

The 6whales and 40% boost berry upgrades are too good for certain civilizations.

[I_HaRRiiSoN_I]

A lot of other standard maps currently have 5 whales. If dhaka turns into a Spain logistician fest then for that indicates a civ balance issue rather than pure Dhaka issue. Its not like you spawn with extra crates, starting market etc. I think the top berries and 2 5k gold mines allow land play to exist along side water play.

[princeofcarthage]

Every map is competitive if you play according to the map. But if you are hell bent on doing semi ff skirm goon every game then idk. Playing germany on dhaka is like invading russia in winter and then wondering why we lost ww2.

you complain about skirm goon semi ff and thne you pick germany who doesnt even have goons as an example. Well done. Besides, how would you revolutionize german gameplay so that they can be competitive on a map like dhaka ?

Ep sometimes changed Germany to the point where traditional Skirm Uhlan compositions was nerfed and eventually WW became dominant units although was later on changed again I believe. So yeah it's similar.

Like I said you have 17 civilisations and by definition of variety every civ will have advantages and disadvantages. So instead of playing the civ, play the map.

Germany was never intended to be water civ as is clear from civ and game design. In short term simply don't play Germany on Dhaka is pretty much my point in case you missed it. And if you do don't cry about map being uncompetitive when clearly you are making poor strategic decisions.

[Mitoe]

A lot of other standard maps currently have 5 whales. If dhaka turns into a Spain logistician fest then for that indicates a civ balance issue rather than pure Dhaka issue. Its not like you spawn with extra crates, starting market etc. I think the top berries and 2 5k gold mines allow land play to exist along side water play.

I don't think civilization balance should be ignored when selecting maps for competitions. The reason why maps like Ceylon and Caribbean are not played competitively is because water is not balanced enough to facilitate fair play among the majority of civs.


Whenever we've seen Dhaka in previous events there have always been few choices on this map. Previous EPL it was mostly Port, Spain, Otto, and a bit of China. All of these civs are good at contesting water, controlling the pond, or both.

Notice how use of Trading Posts isn't on the list? Sure, 3 of these civs are quite good at using TPs, but the real trick on this map is that ownership of the trade route is determined by ownership of the pond, so civs that have less tools to control the pond are usually unable to stagecoach boom on this map. Other civs that do like taking TP lines--Haudenosaunee, Aztec, Lakota, and France, really struggle to take the TPs, control the pond, and contest water all at once, which puts them at a severe disadvantage.

Some civs seem like they might be able to control the pond naturally with things like warhuts and blockhouses, but this is actually quite risky because an early 2 caravel shipment could shut everything down immediately. This was less of a problem in the past, but now that Port and Spain are pretty much going 10/10 and 12/10 every game, it is very difficult to get structures up with 0 risk involved.

And ultimately, if you are trying to get control of the pond that means you often cannot pressure water, and you are most likely not going to succeed in putting on enough pressure when the opponent can double your vill count 8 minutes into the game, while also shipping defensive shipments like CM to prevent any reasonable counter-play.

Normally when you look at a map you can setup a list of objectives that can set you up for a win. This is the list for Dhaka:

- Water boom
- Stagecoach boom
- Pond control
- Berry/Gold boom <- This does not actually work because it is too slow, IMO

On most maps, a civ has to check one or two of these boxes in order to be competitive. However, on Dhaka all of these boxes are connected. Water control enables pond control which leads to trade control; and because all of those directions are interconnected, civs that can check all the boxes are going to be much safer and stronger than others. This is difficult to avoid with civ balance: the more things required to compete on a map the less likely it is that a large number of civs will be able to match those criteria.


It's also worth noting that this tournament has a civilization draft rule for the Quarterfinals and onward, which makes maps with limited options even more problematic for competitive play because you are now forcing players to draft either Portuguese or Spanish, or else suffer a free loss. The power pick rule barely helps here. You can guarantee you get one of the required civs to remain competitive, but you may risk giving up one of your best civs on other maps (*cough* Sweden *cough*). Ultimately it is just very likely that you end up with one player with a significant advantage before the series even begins with this map pool.

[Mr_Bramboy]

@Mitoe Great points, we'll take them into consideration for the next stage in the tournament.

[princeofcarthage]

@Mitoe and whats wrong in that? out of 50 maps if one map is somewhat unique its completely fair. Sounds like you are just pissed cuz none of your strong civ is playable on it.

[Hazza54321]

Lol

[kevinitalien]

@Mitoe and whats wrong in that? out of 50 maps if one map is somewhat unique its completely fair. Sounds like you are just pissed cuz none of your strong civ is playable on it.

5712 bullshit post, congrats

[Kaiserklein]

@Mitoe and whats wrong in that? out of 50 maps if one map is somewhat unique its completely fair. Sounds like you are just pissed cuz none of your strong civ is playable on it.

stfu

[vividlyplain]

On most maps, a civ has to check one or two of these boxes in order to be competitive. However, on Dhaka all of these boxes are connected. Water control enables pond control which leads to trade control; and because all of those directions are interconnected, civs that can check all the boxes are going to be much safer and stronger than others. This is difficult to avoid with civ balance: the more things required to compete on a map the less likely it is that a large number of civs will be able to match those criteria.

Thank you, as always with the level-headed response. I'd just like to point out that the competition is between the civs and players, not the map. As @I_HaRRiiSoN_I likes to say, it's not standard, but it's not not competitive. People really need to stop conflating the two terms.

[Kaiserklein]

Well it is not competitive though. Games being decided by how many of your warships will spawn in the pond, how fast they'll decide to shoot, or how many great treasures spawn on your side, isn't what I'd call competitive

[n0el]

@Mitoe and whats wrong in that? out of 50 maps if one map is somewhat unique its completely fair. Sounds like you are just pissed cuz none of your strong civ is playable on it.

China is strong on Dhaka and that is one of Mitoe's strongest civs.