Introducing the "Play all Civs" challenge

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United States of America Squamiger
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Re: Introducing the "Play all Civs" challenge

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Post by Squamiger »

honestly I think im done with this challenge, the last civs to play are Lakota/Japan/Inca/USA/Swede and I just can't be assed to try to learn these civs
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Re: Introducing the "Play all Civs" challenge

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Post by aligator92 »

Squamiger wrote:honestly I think im done with this challenge, the last civs to play are Lakota/Japan/Inca/USA/Swede and I just can't be assed to try to learn these civs
Every player refusing to play Japan is a small victory for humanity
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Re: Introducing the "Play all Civs" challenge

Post by princeofcarthage »

And a loss for creativity.
Fine line to something great is a strange change.
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Re: Introducing the "Play all Civs" challenge

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Post by Thrar »

A pity. Finding a reason to bother learning all those civs was the main reason why wanted to try this, otherwise I'd never do it either.


For today, I'm going to try something new: I'm going to play the challenge on stream for two hours or so, starting at 1pm GMT, i.e. when this post is 3 hours old.
Come say hello if you want to see me struggle with the Germans and give some sage advice!
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Re: Introducing the "Play all Civs" challenge

Post by Squamiger »

maybe I will pick it up again. I just ragequit the other day with inca
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Re: Introducing the "Play all Civs" challenge

Post by Thrar »

I'm going to do another 2 hour stream with Germans today, starting 1pm GMT again. Come say hello!
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Progress Update - Germans

Week 8 with the Germans is completed. I played around 40 games with a win rate of about 45% and dropped 100 rating points in the process.

As evidenced by the rating drop, this was the second civ (after Aztecs) that I really struggled with. It got a bit better towards the end of the week but still some ways from where I'd like to be.
I think my main issue was defending against age 2 pressure - in some games I'd get caught while aging up, in others I spent too much in age 2 and fell behind or got up to age 3 too late. Age 2 macro felt tricky; needing either lots wood for bow/pike or lots of coin to age up, so there is a noticeable transition when deciding to go for an age up and it's hard to spend the coin in a meaningful way if the opponent pushes before the age up is in.
Games where I was left alone to go age 3 went better, although the lack of a 2 falc shipment was noticeable. Free uhlans are great though and once I got the hang of the macro (more coin-heavy units, more wood for housing and uhlan upgrade compared to e.g. France) the early to mid age 3 felt really strong.

The lesson I didn't quite learn yet is how to figure out when it's safe to go to age 3. With musket civs that decision is easier since you can just save up and, if pressured more than expected, spend it all on muskets. With Germans, once you gather or ship coin, you're kind of committed. Even though I'm not good at it yet, I've become more effective at scouting in age 2 to see what the opponent is up to, their units, number of military buildings, and macro.
I've also started to get the hang of raiding with multiple groups, at least while not under pressure. When getting pushed or making a push myself I still have a hard time keeping track of it all.

The stream experiment was fun too, it was great to have some support especially while playing with a civ that I was having difficulty with. This week is looking a bit busy but I might do it again in the second half. Thank you for your advice and support!

Next up will be the Japanese.
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Re: Introducing the "Play all Civs" challenge

Post by aligator92 »

Funny to see you struggle the most with my 2 best civs. But yeah, colonial Germany is really awkward and there was a time where I felt that my winrate in games where I trained crossbows was like 10%

Also, I think you should take a week off. Nobody wants to see you play Japan ;)
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Progress Update - Japanese

Week 9 with the Japanese is technically completed. I played only the bare minimum, around 20 games.

In the first half of the week, things were going largely as expected, winning some and losing some. I played only about 10 games in this period due to outside factors so it's hard to draw any conclusions from it. Maintaining shrine count felt similar to maintaining torps with Sweden, a bit easier thanks to the explorers building them but not quite as powerful.

Just when I felt I began getting an understanding of Japan's core features was when people started to figure out the new African civs. In the second half of the week, my win rate took a sharp nosedive, playing almost exclusively against Ethiopians and Hausa and losing every single match to them. I was overloaded trying to learn my new civ while simultaneously having to figure out what those units did and how to counter, scout, or play around them.

I will be taking a break from this challenge for a week. Perhaps that will give me enough time to get to know the African units and strategies a bit better so I won't get blindsided as much.
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Re: Introducing the "Play all Civs" challenge

Post by dansil92 »

@Thrar TAR has temporarily taken away quicksearch but ruining the play all civs challenge is one step tol far :(
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Re: Introducing the "Play all Civs" challenge

Post by Thrar »

Just a quick update, the challenge is back on! I've done a bit more Japan last week and have now started with Inca. I'll probably do another stream later this week too.

Let me know if anyone wants to play a few games (1300-1500) or has some good advice!
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Progress Update - Inca

Week 10 with the Inca is completed. I played a bit over 30 games with a win rate somewhere around 55%.

The start of the week was rough, lots of losses to Hausa rushes since my build wasn't tight enough and I didn't fully understand what was coming yet. Once I figured out how to hold that and how to do the general early strategies - rush/defense, age 2 early timing, age 2 timing after full kancha - it got better. Inca macro is really quite easy once you get the hang of it, with a food/wood eco that only changes once you start mixing chimus or look to age up.
I was surprised to see how weak jungle bowmen are, pound for pound. They're cheap so still a solid unit, but their HP and range are so much lower than skirms that it's really hard to avoid getting poked forever. I think I've given them too much respect when playing against Inca in the past.
The thing I enjoyed the most was how flexible Inca are on the scale between rush and boom. In the early game they can shift gears at any time depending on how the game develops, just by allocating a few more vils to food or wood and focusing more on units or kancha, respectively. With two war huts it's also easy to spend resources quickly if you find yourself unexpectedly needing units.
One thing I didn't like was how useless fortress age felt in many cases. You have to upgrade at least 2 and eventually probably 3 units and don't have access to a shadow-teched power unit. It seemed like more of a reactive play when unable to put on enough pressure in age 2. Inca are a bit like India in that way, but at least India get strong shipments like siege and urumi while Inca just get slightly bigger shipments of the same units as in age 2.

Aside from playing with that strategic flexibility, the main thing I learned was shifting forces to different areas regularly to exploit the weak but fast units. Poking in against a skirm defense is useless, but keeping them busy with a decoy while moving most forces to the other side can be quite effective. Even better when combined with a chimu raid to really overload the opponent (and at times, myself).

Next up will be the Portuguese.
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Progress Update - Portuguese

Week 11 with the Portuguese is completed. I played a bit over 30 games with a win rate somewhere around 40%.

Despite the poor win rate, this was a fun week. I found that I was terrible at booming under pressure, on water in general, and in the late game. These seem to be the 3 most important skills to have with Portuguese.
The reason I enjoyed this week more than most was that I could see myself make tangible progress in these areas, which should be transferable to other civs too. It was an interesting experience to be reactive in just about any matchup, letting the opponent dictate play while trying to outscale them. I'm still significantly worse at this than at playing proactively (by the end still 200 Elo points off my peak rating in the Lakota week), but it's given me more tools in my belt as well as a better understanding of where it hurts when playing against a defensive player.
There is still a lot more for me to learn here and I could see myself going back to Portuguese after this challenge for at least a month to better round out my skills as a player.

This was the last of the civs I had initially planned to play before the TAR release. I'd rather do my African civs after the expected rebalancing, so I've decided to expand my scope to include the civs I've last played many years ago and whose meta has surely changed. That's the Spanish, Russians, Dutch, and Ottomans.

Next up will be the Russians.
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Progress Update - Russians

Week 12 with the Russians is completed. I played a bit over 30 games with a win rate around 60%, mostly due to regaining my rating after the previous week.

This week started strong due to my rating being lower than usual and Russia apparently not being terribly difficult to learn. As usual I struggled against Hausa at first, both the rush and the 7-8 minute timing. As the week went on though my opening became tighter and I learned how to strike the right balance between military, settler production, and eventually market upgrades so by the end of the week I was able to give them a fair fight.

I liked the combination of eco and early pressure that Russia offers. You're usually on the offensive and have a good amount of map control, but you're not forced to do serious damage with a rush because the Russian eco will carry you in extended age 2 as long as you contain the opponent.
I found that in games where both players stayed in age 2, I would win most of the time. However, I lost most of my games that went to age 3. Having to upgrade 2-3 unit types and no access to a shadow-teched power unit made early age 3 slow and I would often lose too much ground to come back. I need to learn to be more defensive in those situations, fall back, abandon the forward base, relocate villagers out of harm's way and build enough blockhouses and stables in the back to maintain production.

Since the September patch isn't out yet, I will continue catching up on civs I haven't played in years. Next up will be the Dutch.
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Re: Introducing the "Play all Civs" challenge

Post by Squamiger »

Thrar wrote: Having to upgrade 2-3 unit types
did you try the church card?
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Re: Introducing the "Play all Civs" challenge

Post by Thrar »

I have it in deck and I think I ended up using it and actually getting Westernization (upgrades all units to age 3, costs 350w 350c) twice.

Thing is, I think it's only good if you have a shipment to spare in late age 2. Given the still pretty high cost, I don't think it's worth it in age 3. It probably won me the game once going up after an extended age 2 where I had already sent the card for lack of anything better to ship, had a large army, and could take a fight almost immediately thanks to the upgrade being so quick to research. Unless all of these things come together though, I'm not sure if the cost is justifiable. I don't think it's worth shipping instead of an age 3 shipment if you don't have one to spare, except perhaps in a world where you also want to get Kalmucks (the dragoons) and somehow have the resources for all that.
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Progress Update - Dutch

Week 13 with the Dutch is completed. Due to non-gaming matters I played only 24 games this week with an even win rate.

For most of the week, the main challenge was to figure out how much I could boom in a given matchup and when to build barracks/stable. In some matchups I went full greed 5 banks with 700w 600w into straight fortress with hardly any military, which I feel was probably not advisable even when it worked. Towards the end of the week I did more semi-FF builds, mixing a stable in the otherwise passive matchups to do some hussar harassment, which also made it easier to adjust if the opponent was doing something unexpected.
Matchups where I faced early pressure myself were mostly fine; the ones I lost I think were due to poor execution or misjudgment on my part. The only thing I wasn't able to contend with at all was Hausa; I've faced them 4-5 times and lost every match. Eventually I ended up building a barracks from 400w and make skirm/pike really early, but while that holds the rush, I wasn't able to produce enough to keep up with the ongoing pressure and would eventually crumble to their superior mass while letting them have at least a comparable eco.

Dutch was fun, I liked the flexibility of bank booming that you can stop at any time and be ahead, unlike e.g. Portuguese where you have to invest at first simply to dig yourself out of the economic hole you start in. Less reliance on natural resources was really helpful too, as well as the flexible and strong unit combinations available.

With the September patch not out yet, next up will be the Spanish. I'll probably have some more non-gaming things to attend to, this might become a 2-week civ if I can't get enough games played in one week.
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Re: Introducing the "Play all Civs" challenge

Post by callentournies »

Here’s a W I got vs t30 Hausa as ducth. 14v idleless logi w/bank then tower in transition.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1143727380?t=32s

700w 8 pike is probably better than what I did (700w 600w 8 pike). Poke with skirms. Keep the halb alive.
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Post by Guigs »

callentournies wrote:Here’s a W I got vs t50 Hausa as ducth. 14v idleless logi w/bank then tower in transition.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1143727380?t=32s

700w 8 pike is probably better than what I did (700w 600w 8 pike). Poke with skirms. Keep the halb alive.
Isn't he the guy who told kaiser to evolve ?
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Re: Introducing the "Play all Civs" challenge

Post by Miyawaki Sakura »

I copied
Fre (Kaiser,mitoe)
Russ (Hazzarov)
Spain (poissondu44,piroshiki,rohbrot)
China (jsm2541,Lukas)
Otto (grasdubix,bwinner,kaiser,sircallen)
brits ( :love: GUA :love: ,aiz,diarouga)


now leftovers
dutch,ger,port,azzy,haud,lakota,india,jap,usa,inca whom should I copy?
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Re: Introducing the "Play all Civs" challenge

Post by Le Hussard sur le toit »

Dutch : LordRaphael, Kaiser
Germany : same
Ports : Kaiser, Kynesie, Breeze.
Haud : Mitoe ?
Azzy : diarouga.
Jap : Kynesie, IamTurk.
India : somp, wickedcossack, hazza.
ESOC : came for the game, stayed for the drama.
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Re: Introducing the "Play all Civs" challenge

Post by Kanoo »

& Tit's India surely
thebritish wrote: ↑
19 Jan 2016, 09:58
So, you are saying that if i watch H20's rec, i can beat anyone below H20's level because i know his BO?
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Progress Update - Spanish

Week 14 with the Spanish is completed. I played 28 games this week with an even win rate.

Overall, Spain was fun and it felt like there were a number of strong strategies available depending on the map and matchup. The fairly standard European unit set helped as well so it was mostly about learning macro and timings. Altogether I used 4 different strategies this week: Fast 12/10 logistician, slower 15/20 or 16/20 logistician, tower FF 2 falc push, and 12/10 logistician water boom.
Part of the fun was that in almost any matchup (the exception being Hausa), I could play proactively and make the opponent react to my gameplan. At the same time, none of these strategies was truly all in, even the 12/10 logistician had enough economy to sustain pressure for quite a while, often until the opponent died or ran out of hunts.

Another positive thing I noticed is that I started getting better on water maps. In previous weeks, especially with Portuguese, I often failed to find the right balance between a sustained boom and enough military to defend. This time, I was more aware of where to scout, when to start making some military, and how many military buildings to make to fully take advantage of the large amount of resources coming in. Previously I always felt a bit uneasy on water maps, but this week I started looking forward to them.

Since the October update doesn't seem to bring any major African changes, it's time to try them. Next up will be Hausa.
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Progress Update - Hausa

Week 15 with the Hausa is completed. I played 30 games over the course of 2 weeks, one before the October patch and one after.

My overall win rate was pretty even, positive in the first week but then slightly negative in the second as I tried to figure out age 2, FF, and semi-FF builds (variants of this) with varying degrees of success. I'm happy with the changes in the patch, in my opinion it changed the civ from one-dimensional and still OP to reasonably balanced and more versatile.

I was bored with the civ pre-patch, but quite enjoyed it after the patch. I didn't have enough time to properly figure out builds but there seemed to be enough promising things to try. In the first week, I got to work on my rush game and feel I've improved a bit, but it's not really my preferred playstyle. Now I feel like I would go back to them, their age 2 and especially age 3 play feels quite diverse and fun.

Next up will be the Ottomans, probably over the course of 2 or 3 calendar weeks again.
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Progress Update - Ottomans

Week 16 with the Ottomans is completed. I played 34 games over the course of a little over a week, with a slightly positive win rate.

I went age 2 in the majority of games, opening with double rax jan or jan/huss depending on the opponent's civ. Against very defensive opponents I went FF into falcs. I never tried to boom from the start, but had a few games that weren't decided in age 2 and eventually turned into a multiple TC boom. I've probably not made abus to the extent that I should have and lost several games due to this, especially against infantry-heavy compositions like India or Inca.

Ottomans are an interesting civ. The fact that their economy is relatively small means shipments are really important early, so while the vil macro is less challenging than many other civs, anticipation to send the right shipment matters a lot. I don't feel like I've learned anything specific, just reinforced how to play musk/huss, when and where to pressure, and how to leverage resource shipments to the max.

Next up will be the Ethiopians.

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