Natives, viable or waste of time?

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Argentina Jets
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Natives, viable or waste of time?

Post by Jets »

Recently I've been watching the esoc premiere league season 3, and I've seen many Spain vs Brits MUs where Spanish logistician can't contest with Brit manor boom.
Luckily I've been playing only Spain ever since I got DE on my hands, and I can tell you that logistician+natives are more worth that you could ever think.
Either a skirmisher or a ranged cav, these units are a huge investment for any civ, considering that and the fact that Spanish logistician is basically massing units until your opponent can't contest any fight, seems that this two concepts might work better together.
I've been successful going full age2 vs Russia, India, Brits, Japan and even Iro, with just ATP, wood crates, 1 barracks and 1/2 native tp. With armies consisting of musketeers and Cherokee/apache/cree riflemen. Sometimes even some Comanche cav archers on some maps.
Where other strategies might failure, such as going unction, musk/rod/huss, or logistician into age3. The native play is somehow more safer and better for your exp curve.
Of course doing something like this relays heavily on the native map spawn, making a FB near a tp is your safest place.
I'd like to know your opinion about it, have you tried it? Would you? Am I just bluffing?
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Re: Natives, viable or waste of time?

Post by draztik »

Logistician has always been quite overrated imo and now it has been nerfed a lot unfairly.
What is your bo with natives?

As for me, I don't like to go into natives at all . I may have lost one game or 2 vs some natives french strategies but it was more about beeing surprised considering I don't know most of the native units lol
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Germany Plantinator
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Re: Natives, viable or waste of time?

Post by Plantinator »

No logistician is fair now and was way too good before imo. Consider u still get 625 res with each age 1 crate shipment and if u calculate the vill secs u save and the tempo of having the res immediately gives u they are at least as good as a 700 res shipment. As already said tho natives are too map dependant since i only consider light infantry a useful addition to spain age 2 roster (they have musk rods as anti cav and hus). So the most useful nat is prob cree for spain since u can also train cdb which could be nice since with logi u usually dont send 5 vills early.
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Brazil DNLgibraltar
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Re: Natives, viable or waste of time?

Post by DNLgibraltar »

I can only assume you are using food and wood crates to enhance your army with natives and as well as using experience to pull Native cards faster.

It's a fair and square tactics although still situational because it depends on the map and cards. I mean we rarely see French and Inca using them frequently nowadays.

We can only hope for the Legacy Natives Rework so we can use them at their fullest.
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Re: Natives, viable or waste of time?

Post by Peachrocks »

Mostly a waste of time. The problems they have are too numerous and far outweigh the benefits. Which basically boils down being popless.

They are usually inefficient per cost, they are limited in number, they have different upgrades (in cards and in research), they require map control to maintain them, your opponent knows you have the tp. The list goes on and on. The techs are situationally good depending on the map and your civ, it can pay to know which ones are good for the civ you are and the strat you want to go for, especially if the game goes long.

Back when they had faster train time you could use some types to hold positions more efficiently but now that’s not true.

They are slightly better as Hausa or Ethiopia because of shadow teching (which shouldn’t be exclusive to them) and a way of getting access to them without the native tps and the units themselves are actually decent for them on top of getting influence trickle from native tps as well. Still it’s not like those civs don’t have other options…
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Argentina Jets
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Re: Natives, viable or waste of time?

Post by Jets »

Peachrocks wrote: They are usually inefficient per cost, they are limited in number, they have different upgrades (in cards and in research), they require map control to maintain them, your opponent knows you have the tp. The list goes on and on. The techs are situationally good depending on the map and your civ, it can pay to know which ones are good for the civ you are and the strat you want to go for, especially if the game goes long.
That's were the logistician is strong, early, quick and fast games. By the time you make your FB, you could have sent 2 wood shipments. Combined with 5 musks for support, your army is composed of HI and native skirms(if possible), which don't only have more HP than a xbow(+200 10% RR), they also train faster and are better for kiting. Native skirms cost arround 100-120 res each, but the more HP, fast training, and no pop, makes a good sinergy with logisitician.

I always tend to follow this build.
3vills > ATP > 300W > 300W > 300W > 300W > 300W > 300W > 300W > 300W >...
U get the point? Fast unit spam combined with fast unit training from TPs. I know it doesn't sound very legit, but as far as I know, I managed to climb some elo with it. Besides, you can always defend from cav attacks while your native skirms focus the enemy musks. And the constant unit spam won't let your opponent boom, or focus on anything else than training bows/musks. In resume, you spam units all the time to make quick little fights with no more than 20 units, and regroup asap, then fight again until your opponent can't contest it anymore, or runs out of shipments. There's not a single minute you aren't fighting.
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Re: Natives, viable or waste of time?

Post by draztik »

I think spain has far better options but it is good also to do the strat you like.
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Re: Natives, viable or waste of time?

Post by Peachrocks »

Jets wrote:
Peachrocks wrote: They are usually inefficient per cost, they are limited in number, they have different upgrades (in cards and in research), they require map control to maintain them, your opponent knows you have the tp. The list goes on and on. The techs are situationally good depending on the map and your civ, it can pay to know which ones are good for the civ you are and the strat you want to go for, especially if the game goes long.
That's were the logistician is strong, early, quick and fast games. By the time you make your FB, you could have sent 2 wood shipments. Combined with 5 musks for support, your army is composed of HI and native skirms(if possible), which don't only have more HP than a xbow(+200 10% RR), they also train faster and are better for kiting. Native skirms cost arround 100-120 res each, but the more HP, fast training, and no pop, makes a good sinergy with logisitician.

I always tend to follow this build.
3vills > ATP > 300W > 300W > 300W > 300W > 300W > 300W > 300W > 300W >...
U get the point? Fast unit spam combined with fast unit training from TPs. I know it doesn't sound very legit, but as far as I know, I managed to climb some elo with it. Besides, you can always defend from cav attacks while your native skirms focus the enemy musks. And the constant unit spam won't let your opponent boom, or focus on anything else than training bows/musks. In resume, you spam units all the time to make quick little fights with no more than 20 units, and regroup asap, then fight again until your opponent can't contest it anymore, or runs out of shipments. There's not a single minute you aren't fighting.
Eh I'm all about the not legit. Used to do this with Portugal like 12 years ago, ATP>Native warriors (If 2 different tps) and early attack. Raid, take trade route/map control etc. Most people expected naked FF's from Port back then. Plus you got the 400 wood age up so you could train nats no problem immediately on age up.

I should point out though the units don't train faster then normal units now either. They used to, now they don't. Cherokee and Cree used to be 20 second train speed, now it's 30 like most other units of that cost, maybe a few seconds quicker. Sepoy are at 34 seconds (120 res) and Muskeeters (100 res) are at 30 for example though of course Cherokee and Cree are much more expensive in villager seconds but the shipment covers that cost to some degree sure.

Not sure of the standard map rotation but Skirm natives are basically Cherokee, Klamath and Cree. What is the exact chance you'll get them or any other native you consider desirable? Serious question. Back when I did nat strats I calculated the chances of getting given maps and was prepared to play without it. Huron maps for example often meant fishing because they are were and still are pretty poor units, especially in the early game.

Obviously skirm natives have some level of value for crossbow civs but the limits just get annoying because it cuts off options for you that wouldn't be cut off if you used normal units. You yourself point out there's not a minute where you aren't fighting because shipments eventually run out, I've never been a fan of that sort of strategic pressure/disadvantage but others like that sort of thing.

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