How would you design the Italians, ESOC?

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United States of America Squamiger
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How would you design the Italians, ESOC?

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Post by Squamiger »

Since Italy is probably coming soon what if we tried to be proactive and presented our vision for a balanced Italian civ ahead of time, instead of criticizing it once it's already made? Imagine it's the EP, what would EP Italians look like?

Here's my idea for an Italian civ:

Civ Bonus / Trade off: Every shipment delivers crates of 100 coin, but all crate shipments have 100 res less. So you could send e.g. 3 huss + 100c, but only 600+100 c. Maybe also shipments come a little slower, like Germany but that can be fine-tuned.

Only slow age to age 3, no exiled prince. No schooners shipment or strong water cards.

Game starts with 6 settlers, 1 explorer (with a sick Christopher Columbus skin) and an Architect, a unique Italian unit.

Base European civ buildings: TC, barracks, stable, saloon, art foundry, arsenal, church, capital.
Normal euro villagers: with 3 vill - 5 vill - 8 vill shipments
Basic European units pikemen, muskets, hussar, halberds, and all european artillery. No xbows, skirms, or dragoons.
Special units:
  • Architect: An envoy-like unit with a large line of sight, but that can also build all buildings 25% faster than a villager. You start the game with one and theres a build limit is 5, and they can be trained in the TC. Has a small punch attack like an envoy, and can't take treasures. Main use is scouting and saving villager seconds in building.
    Genovese Crossbowman. Available in Age 2, a crossbowman with longer range and more ranged resistance than normal xbows but shorter range than lbows. Can be upgraded to vet, guard, and imperial, and takes the place of skirmishers, very similar to longbows for Brits. Has a royal guard upgrade.
    Milanese Lancer. Age 3 unit, pretty much just a copy of the Spanish lancer, maybe with slightly different balance of attack + hp + resistance. Royal guard upgrades.
    Carabinieri. Age 3 dragoon unit, 1 pop, similar to a Ruyter.
    Piccolo Cannone. An age 4 cannon that's an homage to the Lil Bombard. About equivalent to an Ottoman Great Bombard.
Ships are caravel, galleon, xebec, and monitor, no frigates.

Upgrade cards would be cav hp. cav attack and cav combat, and archaic infantry hp, attack, and combat, artillery hp and attack, and a card called Machiavellian Tactics that gives 8% hp and attack to all units in age 4, like western reforms card for China

I feel like its sort of a combo between Spain and India, with an eco bonus on every shipment but a focus on archaic infantry + lancers
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Re: How would you design the Italians, ESOC?

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Post by Goodspeed »

My god the pace at which they're releasing new civs is so irresponsible

Gotta get that $$ I guess
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Re: How would you design the Italians, ESOC?

Post by callentournies »

Wasnā€™t there that guy who wanted 9 new civs a year on the official forums and it had a bunch of upvotes?
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Re: How would you design the Italians, ESOC?

Post by princeofcarthage »

Topic -> How would you design new civ

American & GS - Omg so many new civs, cash grab. Blah blah blah
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Re: How would you design the Italians, ESOC?

Post by duckzilla »

I like most of the ideas. However, I would prefer not to include Genoese Crossbowmen. It looks like they were a medieval unit which saw its last use in the Battle of Crecy in 1346, where they were utterly destroyed by British longbows. Further, Italy usually had an edge regarding military technology due to the number of wars combined with sufficient funds. To me, it does not make sense to have an archaic unique unit for Italy.

The focus on lancers, goon units and artillery, however, is very nice. Actually, the 1512 Battle of Ravenna marked the first decisive employment of artillery as field artillery in history. Further, the first firearmed cavalry units go back on Pietro Strozzi who served the French after the end of the Italian wars and then formed a military unit to be called "dragoons".

I would also love to see the Xebec with a unique mechanic such as damage bonus for being close to land, which could be explained with the Xebecs faster speed and better maneuverability giving them an edge in more difficult waters. E.g. +50%dmg if touching the coastline linearly decreasing to +0%dmg at a distance of 20.

I would further expect some trade route-related bonus. Maybe a mechanic that treats your trade route similar to an asian consulate and allows you to "trade" with mediterranean civs by changing the benefits the trade route can offer or giving additional ones. I could imagine something like trading with Egypt, which reduces your unit cost by 5% per trade post due to cheaper grain imports. Or trading with Ottomans, which increases artillery dmg by 10% per outpost due to imports of gunpowder/artillery technology.
Whatever is written above: this is no financial advice.

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Re: How would you design the Italians, ESOC?

Post by BrookG »

They need to be fit, and have pizza and pasta crates for food
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Re: How would you design the Italians, ESOC?

Post by fightinfrenchman »

callentournies wrote:Wasnā€™t there that guy who wanted 9 new civs a year on the official forums and it had a bunch of upvotes?
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Re: How would you design the Italians, ESOC?

Post by jesus3 »

optimally, you'd only ask @Garja and no additional people. He has waited patiently for this moment.
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Re: How would you design the Italians, ESOC?

Post by duckzilla »

jesus3 wrote:optimally, you'd only ask @Garja and no additional people
Difficult. We would need at least a second Italian from another region (North/South) or we will get a biased answer. Then we need to use the classic questions to see whether they represent the different parts of Italy sufficiently: butter or olive oil?
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Re: How would you design the Italians, ESOC?

Post by jesus3 »

duckzilla wrote:
jesus3 wrote:optimally, you'd only ask @Garja and no additional people
Difficult. We would need at least a second Italian from another region (North/South) or we will get a biased answer. Then we need to use the classic questions to see whether they represent the different parts of Italy sufficiently: butter or olive oil?
Well spoken, how could I forget? I'm ashamed. Garja and another northern Italian will design the civ. Amen.
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Re: How would you design the Italians, ESOC?

Post by n0el »

I think Italians should be very strong on water, as a true rival to Ports on water. How that happens I don't know. Maybe their docks cost 100w or something.
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Re: How would you design the Italians, ESOC?

Post by princeofcarthage »

Medieval Italian (equivalent countries of the time) never really had a strong navy, at least not comparable with Portugese, Spanish or the British
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Re: How would you design the Italians, ESOC?

Post by Squamiger »

Goodspeed wrote:My god the pace at which they're releasing new civs is so irresponsible

Gotta get that $$ I guess
I agree but I'm saying, if theyre gonna do it, maybe we should create something like a letter of demands ahead of time rather than just criticizing when they come out.
jesus3 wrote:optimally, you'd only ask @Garja and no additional people. He has waited patiently for this moment.
I also agree with this, just let Garja make this civ unaided. Would probably be good
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Re: How would you design the Italians, ESOC?

Post by Squamiger »

n0el wrote:I think Italians should be very strong on water, as a true rival to Ports on water. How that happens I don't know. Maybe their docks cost 100w or something.
I like the idea of replacing frigates with xebecs for Italians, since they were a true mediterranean ship. Idk if that makes them stronger or weaker on water though tbh. Also, I think the only way a civ will compare with ports on water is by getting free TCs with every age, that's really what makes ports so dominant
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Re: How would you design the Italians, ESOC?

Post by Squamiger »

duckzilla wrote:I like most of the ideas. However, I would prefer not to include Genoese Crossbowmen. It looks like they were a medieval unit which saw its last use in the Battle of Crecy in 1346, where they were utterly destroyed by British longbows. Further, Italy usually had an edge regarding military technology due to the number of wars combined with sufficient funds. To me, it does not make sense to have an archaic unique unit for Italy.

The focus on lancers, goon units and artillery, however, is very nice. Actually, the 1512 Battle of Ravenna marked the first decisive employment of artillery as field artillery in history. Further, the first firearmed cavalry units go back on Pietro Strozzi who served the French after the end of the Italian wars and then formed a military unit to be called "dragoons".

I would also love to see the Xebec with a unique mechanic such as damage bonus for being close to land, which could be explained with the Xebecs faster speed and better maneuverability giving them an edge in more difficult waters. E.g. +50%dmg if touching the coastline linearly decreasing to +0%dmg at a distance of 20.

I would further expect some trade route-related bonus. Maybe a mechanic that treats your trade route similar to an asian consulate and allows you to "trade" with mediterranean civs by changing the benefits the trade route can offer or giving additional ones. I could imagine something like trading with Egypt, which reduces your unit cost by 5% per trade post due to cheaper grain imports. Or trading with Ottomans, which increases artillery dmg by 10% per outpost due to imports of gunpowder/artillery technology.
see the whole point of my civ design is to make a simple civ, similar to something like spain, with simple civ bonuses, to get away from the complexity of recent DE civs. So I like the ideas but I think the last two are just too much. They are very DE, whereas I am going for something that's EP: the civ bonuses are 100c with every shipment (as a trade off, all crate shipments have 100c less), and an architect unit that is an envoy scout but can also build buildings to save you villager seconds.

I could go either way on the crossbowman. It's pretty much the only unit that doesnt have at least 1 civ that uses it as their main unit throughout the game, and I thought it would be interesting to create another civ like Brits which has muskets and goons but no skirms, just a long range archer unit.
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Re: How would you design the Italians, ESOC?

Post by gibson »

Itā€™s confirmed that thereā€™s gonna be another new civ?
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Re: How would you design the Italians, ESOC?

Post by Squamiger »

gibson wrote:Itā€™s confirmed that thereā€™s gonna be another new civ?
no but its very clear that the business model for aoe3 is to make 5 dollar DLCs for a few years at least. why else would microsoft be restarting support for DE? there has to be a financial incentive, and im pretty sure its a DLC / new civ scheme
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Re: How would you design the Italians, ESOC?

Post by Plantinator »

Sounds like a good opportunity to finally introduce the hoop thrower from the campaign. Just replace the hoop with a pizza and ure vibin.
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Re: How would you design the Italians, ESOC?

Post by duckzilla »

princeofcarthage wrote:Medieval Italian (equivalent countries of the time) never really had a strong navy, at least not comparable with Portugese, Spanish or the British
So the famous Venetian Arsenal was entirely useless and Venice never really had a strong navy albeit being the premier navy in the mediterranean for multiple centuries, I guess. Thanks for the insight.
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Re: How would you design the Italians, ESOC?

Post by princeofcarthage »

duckzilla wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:Medieval Italian (equivalent countries of the time) never really had a strong navy, at least not comparable with Portugese, Spanish or the British
So the famous Venetian Arsenal was entirely useless and Venice never really had a strong navy albeit being the premier navy in the mediterranean for multiple centuries, I guess. Thanks for the insight.
AOE III roughly spans from 1492 - 1876.

When you consider Italy, modern Italy there were many states at the time, Venice was just one of them. So the current civ would be a fusion of them. By the end of 16th century Venetian navy had already lost its dominance. So effectively for majority of aoe3 time period Venice wasn't as dominant and neither a match for other European powers.

From your link
"By the sixteenth century, Venice, though significant, was no longer the predominant naval power it had once been;"

The only 2 major naval powers on Italian peninsula were Venice & Genoa and both were very short lived. You are welcome for the insight I gave you. In fact if we live in same timeline, Venetian navy peaked sometime in 1200-1300.
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Re: How would you design the Italians, ESOC?

Post by Dolan »

You can design it in any way you want or is convenient. Since for AOE3 history is more like an alibi, rather than a justification, you can create any kinds of units, as long as there's some historical element you can tie it to.
Meaning: the civ doesn't have to be an accurate representation of history, it can be any fun-to-play fictional schema of what an Italian civ could be. So many Italian civs can be equally possible, all of them historically inaccurate but plausible enough.
As AOE3 already has some classes of units (light inf, heavy inf, heavy cav, ranged cav, artillery, etc), all you have to do is look for some units that could be good candidates for these classes.

Italian city-states got wealthy through trade, which allowed them to hire mercs to fight their battles, so an Italian civ should have a bonus or special card (condottieri) for mercs. They should have a cheaper or bigger shipment of Swiss pikes.

Some standard units:
A heavy or hand cav that costs more than huss, but has more HP - could be called Lances (different from the Spanish Lancer)
Pikes - your basic pike
Crossbow - basic xbow
Arquebusiers - a skirmisher with some unique bonus (movement speed or rate of fire?)
Bersaglieri - the modern upgrade for arqs (maybe placed in age 4)
Granatieri - grens
Cavalleggeri - horse archers with low HP, available in age 2 maybe
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Re: How would you design the Italians, ESOC?

Post by duckzilla »

princeofcarthage wrote:
duckzilla wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:Medieval Italian (equivalent countries of the time) never really had a strong navy, at least not comparable with Portugese, Spanish or the British
So the famous Venetian Arsenal was entirely useless and Venice never really had a strong navy albeit being the premier navy in the mediterranean for multiple centuries, I guess. Thanks for the insight.
stupid stuff
So why were you talking about medieval Italian navies then? Also did you know that "never" is quite a strong word? In your argument, it actually means that no Italian faction had a strong navy over the entire timeframe. And, as I showed you, that's wrong.
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Re: How would you design the Italians, ESOC?

Post by princeofcarthage »

duckzilla wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:
Show hidden quotes
True stuff as opposed to false propaganda of duckzilla
So why were you talking about medieval Italian navies then?
Ngl, medieval age still makes me feel like till 18th or 19th century. I always confuse it, just because the difference in say 20th century and 18th century is so vast compared to say 15th century. I am wrong but for some reason it's set in my mind that modern age began in 18th-19th century and not 16th.
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Re: How would you design the Italians, ESOC?

Post by princeofcarthage »

duckzilla wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Intellectual stuff beyond the comprehension of duckzilla
Also did you know that "never" is quite a strong word? In your argument, it actually means that no Italian faction had a strong navy over the entire timeframe. And, as I showed you, that's wrong.
In the time frame I mentioned albeit late,
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Re: How would you design the Italians, ESOC?

Post by hellhammer99 »

Italians were planned back in 2005 and some stuff can be found at the game files, and yes the gen crossbow could be their unique archer, odly enough, was given to the aoe 2 Italians as the UU.
They could get that city state system that was planned though (Genoa, Milan, Sicily, etc..)
But I think before Italians, other civs could get a bigger priority (Persians, Siamese, Polish).

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