Japan Rework
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- Crossbow
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Nov 7, 2020
Japan Rework
goal is to give them better gameplay that relies less on turtle eco while also making them feel more like the hyper aggressive and militarized Japanese mindset of the era. Numbers are placeholders, feedback welcome.
for better formatting: https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/japan-rework/202930
Eco Rework
Shrines no longer generate resources. instead, each shrine increases gather and yield rates by .2%, increased by another .2% for every shrine slot taken by an animal. shrines automatically generate a shrine deer every 150 seconds worth 50 food. That’s 10 minutes to to fill a shrine without hunts. hp is now 1200.
Toshogu Shrine now acts as 2.5 shrines, worth 25 pop with 10 shrine slots. no longer affects other shrines.
maximum 20% gather increase, 25% with Toshogu Shrine when filled with animals.
tempo reform reduces shrine deer and villager train times.
villager limit increased to 80 from 75.
cherry orchards gather at the same speed as hunting. 1 less starting villager in exchange for wood crate.
Cards In General
new age 1 card ships a consulate wagon and grants export for every unit killed and xp for every unit lost.
Gain 3 vills x2 in age 1, 2 vills x2 is instead infinite like all other civs.
2 cherry wagons removed in age 2, cherry blossom festival is now an age 2 card that increases gather rate by 25% and ships 2 cherry wagons. 3 cherry wagon card age 3 that also boost gather speed, and 3 infinite team cherry wagons in age 4.
new age 3 card ships 1 villager for every 8 units killed up to 12. if maximum amount reached improves natural resource yield and gather speed. a similar age 4 version with a maximum of 20 villagers, when maximum reached grants all pre imperial rice paddy techs.
Heavenly Kami now an age 3 card that halves shrine cost and build time and reduces deer spawn time. 7lg gives shrines an xp and export trickle and spawns mm when destroyed.
3 Naganita Riders x2 age 2. Infinite Sohei Naginatas in age 4.
age 2 individual attack cards removed, now only 10% infantry attack/cavalry attack cards remain.
General Rework
Every age up wonder now gives a military wagon.
Dojos are now buildable by default, units spawn at shipment point in batches of 10 pop and have 20% increase in stats and unique models, but also train slower as well.
Golden Pavilion now only has 3 buffs. ranged buff improves damage and range of ranged units, melee buff improves hp/damage and move speed of melee units, and a naval buff.
Daimyo/Shogun are trainable from tc by default, age unlocked corresponding with their cards. requires Shogunate wonder to receive shipments. Shogunate wonder still unlocks and ships a Daimyo, the card Bakafu is now an age 4 tech at this wonder.
Great Buddha no longer ships Naginatas and cherry orchards. instead grants a unique Pure Land native embassy wagon with improved techs and special Sohei Naginatas that are 20% stronger than normal. also passively increases los of all units and buildings.
Japanese Isolation techs and units moved to Torri gates wonder and replaced with American option in consulate. damage buff removed, now only doubles kill bounty xp. Torri gates now ships an assortment of Japanese consulate units depending on age up.
military rickshaw tech changed to allow Ashigaru to build military buildings quicker and cheaper. Clan Offerings tech changed to granting food for every unit killed. Meiji Restoration now an age 5 tech that gives access to WW1 era Japanese units and factories.
Military Rework
focus on more fragile but harder hitting units to promote better micro and make mistakes more punishing. keep in mind numbers are placeholders and probably unbalanced, the direction is what matters.
Samurai cost changed to 120 food 80 gold; train time reduced to 36 seconds. they now have 200 hp, 20% resistance and siege reduced to 40, but their move speed is increased to 5.5 and damage to 40 x1.25 vs cavalry.
The card Sword Saint now increases speed and aoe by 1 and damage by 20%.
Naginata Rider hp reduced to 200, resistance to 20%. damage increased to 40 * 1.25 vs all infantry.
Naginata hp card removed, Bloody Harvest increases infantry multiplier to 1.5x, speed by 1.25, and damage by 20%.
Ashigaru hp reduced to 150 and melee damage to 8 x4 vs cavalry, but their ranged attack is increased to 28.
Close combat card increases melee multiplier to x6, speed by .5, and damage by 20%.
Yumi cost changed to 100 food 20 wood, 80 hp with 20% resistance and 20 range. Damage is 12 x2 vs light cavalry and heavy infantry, x0.5 vs heavy cavalry at 1.5 rof.
Way of the Bow increases range by 2, damage bonus damage to 3x, and damage by 20%.
idk Yabusame.
Most important of all, a new campaign that explores the Sino/Russo wars of the late industrial era.
for better formatting: https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/japan-rework/202930
Eco Rework
Shrines no longer generate resources. instead, each shrine increases gather and yield rates by .2%, increased by another .2% for every shrine slot taken by an animal. shrines automatically generate a shrine deer every 150 seconds worth 50 food. That’s 10 minutes to to fill a shrine without hunts. hp is now 1200.
Toshogu Shrine now acts as 2.5 shrines, worth 25 pop with 10 shrine slots. no longer affects other shrines.
maximum 20% gather increase, 25% with Toshogu Shrine when filled with animals.
tempo reform reduces shrine deer and villager train times.
villager limit increased to 80 from 75.
cherry orchards gather at the same speed as hunting. 1 less starting villager in exchange for wood crate.
Cards In General
new age 1 card ships a consulate wagon and grants export for every unit killed and xp for every unit lost.
Gain 3 vills x2 in age 1, 2 vills x2 is instead infinite like all other civs.
2 cherry wagons removed in age 2, cherry blossom festival is now an age 2 card that increases gather rate by 25% and ships 2 cherry wagons. 3 cherry wagon card age 3 that also boost gather speed, and 3 infinite team cherry wagons in age 4.
new age 3 card ships 1 villager for every 8 units killed up to 12. if maximum amount reached improves natural resource yield and gather speed. a similar age 4 version with a maximum of 20 villagers, when maximum reached grants all pre imperial rice paddy techs.
Heavenly Kami now an age 3 card that halves shrine cost and build time and reduces deer spawn time. 7lg gives shrines an xp and export trickle and spawns mm when destroyed.
3 Naganita Riders x2 age 2. Infinite Sohei Naginatas in age 4.
age 2 individual attack cards removed, now only 10% infantry attack/cavalry attack cards remain.
General Rework
Every age up wonder now gives a military wagon.
Dojos are now buildable by default, units spawn at shipment point in batches of 10 pop and have 20% increase in stats and unique models, but also train slower as well.
Golden Pavilion now only has 3 buffs. ranged buff improves damage and range of ranged units, melee buff improves hp/damage and move speed of melee units, and a naval buff.
Daimyo/Shogun are trainable from tc by default, age unlocked corresponding with their cards. requires Shogunate wonder to receive shipments. Shogunate wonder still unlocks and ships a Daimyo, the card Bakafu is now an age 4 tech at this wonder.
Great Buddha no longer ships Naginatas and cherry orchards. instead grants a unique Pure Land native embassy wagon with improved techs and special Sohei Naginatas that are 20% stronger than normal. also passively increases los of all units and buildings.
Japanese Isolation techs and units moved to Torri gates wonder and replaced with American option in consulate. damage buff removed, now only doubles kill bounty xp. Torri gates now ships an assortment of Japanese consulate units depending on age up.
military rickshaw tech changed to allow Ashigaru to build military buildings quicker and cheaper. Clan Offerings tech changed to granting food for every unit killed. Meiji Restoration now an age 5 tech that gives access to WW1 era Japanese units and factories.
Military Rework
focus on more fragile but harder hitting units to promote better micro and make mistakes more punishing. keep in mind numbers are placeholders and probably unbalanced, the direction is what matters.
Samurai cost changed to 120 food 80 gold; train time reduced to 36 seconds. they now have 200 hp, 20% resistance and siege reduced to 40, but their move speed is increased to 5.5 and damage to 40 x1.25 vs cavalry.
The card Sword Saint now increases speed and aoe by 1 and damage by 20%.
Naginata Rider hp reduced to 200, resistance to 20%. damage increased to 40 * 1.25 vs all infantry.
Naginata hp card removed, Bloody Harvest increases infantry multiplier to 1.5x, speed by 1.25, and damage by 20%.
Ashigaru hp reduced to 150 and melee damage to 8 x4 vs cavalry, but their ranged attack is increased to 28.
Close combat card increases melee multiplier to x6, speed by .5, and damage by 20%.
Yumi cost changed to 100 food 20 wood, 80 hp with 20% resistance and 20 range. Damage is 12 x2 vs light cavalry and heavy infantry, x0.5 vs heavy cavalry at 1.5 rof.
Way of the Bow increases range by 2, damage bonus damage to 3x, and damage by 20%.
idk Yabusame.
Most important of all, a new campaign that explores the Sino/Russo wars of the late industrial era.
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- Crossbow
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Jul 29, 2020
- ESO: Passi_Der_Große
- Location: Germany
Re: Japan Rework
what did i just read lol
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- Musketeer
- Posts: 94
- Joined: Jan 17, 2021
Re: Japan Rework
I guess the solution to Africa + Inca is to just make Japan OP again so people start complaining about that instead?
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- Crossbow
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Nov 7, 2020
Re: Japan Rework
was actually more worried it would be too weak, 1% shrine eco boost on a 5 vill start could be too slow.
ideal is to make a playstyle where the Japanese player is incentivized to constantly attack and generate export/xp to continue pressure while slowly scaling with Vill numbers and a worse shrine boom. hiding behind walls and doing ashi harass would be worse. idk about the numbers, but is the idea behind it something worth pursuing?
ideal is to make a playstyle where the Japanese player is incentivized to constantly attack and generate export/xp to continue pressure while slowly scaling with Vill numbers and a worse shrine boom. hiding behind walls and doing ashi harass would be worse. idk about the numbers, but is the idea behind it something worth pursuing?
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- Crossbow
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Nov 7, 2020
Re: Japan Rework
to make the change clearer, at the proposed numbers it would take over 50 villagers gathering at the faster orchard rate to match a single shrine with deer compared to before.
until you reach 50 villagers the shrines are much worse, strictly more so when you can have that resource income within the first minute of the game rather than eventually reach that income 15+ minutes into the game with multiple tcs. and if you are idled or inefficient with villager micro that income drops to 0.
if your denied hunts and have to wait for deer to spawn the shrines are essentially not worth building, its .2% plus another every 2 minutes. and with shrine hp dropped to 1200 hp its harder than before to defend if you're not active on the map and hiding behind walls.
until you reach 50 villagers the shrines are much worse, strictly more so when you can have that resource income within the first minute of the game rather than eventually reach that income 15+ minutes into the game with multiple tcs. and if you are idled or inefficient with villager micro that income drops to 0.
if your denied hunts and have to wait for deer to spawn the shrines are essentially not worth building, its .2% plus another every 2 minutes. and with shrine hp dropped to 1200 hp its harder than before to defend if you're not active on the map and hiding behind walls.
- ShinkuroYukinari
- Dragoon
- Posts: 423
- Joined: Apr 27, 2019
- ESO: ShinkuroYukinari
- Clan: BANIN
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- Musketeer
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Mar 14, 2015
Re: Japan Rework
if u whana play agro japan just age with torii gates and ship units
Re: Japan Rework
yeah rework japan but dont make them op pls, it will be hard
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- Crossbow
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Nov 7, 2020
Re: Japan Rework
I think using numbers was a mistake, it didn't really convey intentions and people mistook the shrine changes for a buff. should have just typed what direction I wanted to see the civ take instead.
these shrine changes would result in Japan losing out on hundreds of resources upon reaching age 2 with 2 or more shrines compared to before. shrine boom would be slower and more fragile while giving thousands of less resources in an average game. in the late game with max shrines and villagers, you're receiving roughly 12 less resources a second or 720 less resources a minute, and the worst late game eco of all civs. this is meant to be a brutal nerf to the Japanese economy, not a buff.
playing standard France 5 hussar semi will result in a stronger economy than a Japan player hardcore shrine booming without the more fragile shrines being sieged. and since you need to gather resources rather than generate them out of thin air, you will run out of gold mines faster and need to move out on the map quicker.
unit changes except to the samurai and yumi are meant to be a nerf as well. nagi don't kill skirms any faster but die 16 skirmisher shots faster before taking into account the removed nagi hp card. ashi have the same hp as regular muskets and will get bursted far quicker. yumi are worse at everything not heavy infantry or light cavalry.
you lose units faster to support an attrition playstyle with a far weaker economy in order to gain xp/export from constantly fighting.
these shrine changes would result in Japan losing out on hundreds of resources upon reaching age 2 with 2 or more shrines compared to before. shrine boom would be slower and more fragile while giving thousands of less resources in an average game. in the late game with max shrines and villagers, you're receiving roughly 12 less resources a second or 720 less resources a minute, and the worst late game eco of all civs. this is meant to be a brutal nerf to the Japanese economy, not a buff.
playing standard France 5 hussar semi will result in a stronger economy than a Japan player hardcore shrine booming without the more fragile shrines being sieged. and since you need to gather resources rather than generate them out of thin air, you will run out of gold mines faster and need to move out on the map quicker.
unit changes except to the samurai and yumi are meant to be a nerf as well. nagi don't kill skirms any faster but die 16 skirmisher shots faster before taking into account the removed nagi hp card. ashi have the same hp as regular muskets and will get bursted far quicker. yumi are worse at everything not heavy infantry or light cavalry.
you lose units faster to support an attrition playstyle with a far weaker economy in order to gain xp/export from constantly fighting.
Re: Japan Rework
I don't see the problem with current Japan. It's a unique playstyle that some people don't like to play with or against. But it's neither overpowered nor underpowered currently. Changing Japan in another direction would just mean to take away its current uniqueness. Of course that's a good thing if you simply don't like current Japan.
Whatever is written above: this is no financial advice.
Beati pauperes spiritu.
Beati pauperes spiritu.
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- Crossbow
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Nov 7, 2020
Re: Japan Rework
that's an argument I can definitely understand, current Japan is popular and removing the current playstyle could do more harm than good. I can see how the cost of changing how they currently play could be too much for players who really enjoy the civ and why we shouldn't take it away from them from a 17-year-old game. at this point we may just as well let them be.
I just didn't understand how a 90-62% reduction in resource value of shrines was considered a buff. I thought I was massively nerfing the civ and yet everyone is genuinely thinking this would be stronger than old Japan. in the end adding numbers and math to a suggestion post is a dumb idea. the numbers aren't important and can mislead people into thinking it does something else than what is intended.
https://www.kapwing.com/videos/627803d5c7fa040070e547b6
I just didn't understand how a 90-62% reduction in resource value of shrines was considered a buff. I thought I was massively nerfing the civ and yet everyone is genuinely thinking this would be stronger than old Japan. in the end adding numbers and math to a suggestion post is a dumb idea. the numbers aren't important and can mislead people into thinking it does something else than what is intended.
https://www.kapwing.com/videos/627803d5c7fa040070e547b6
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- kaister
- Lancer
- Posts: 716
- Joined: Jun 25, 2015
- ESO: I Date My Cousin
Re: Japan Rework
In a corresponding move, I suggest we change the 2 falc shipment to a 2 cruise missile shipment
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