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Post by Hazza54321 »

Wooosh
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Post by fei123456 »

Well, some new civs may be a bit complex and frustrating (USA, Mexico etc), but Malta is a standard euro-style civilization. No house boom, no strange OP new units, no mass upgrade/revolution options ... It's just designed for Kaiser imo.
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Post by Hazza54321 »

Not totally unexpected but it sad to see you go for the next few weeks. Always enjoyed taking the piss out of you and bashing you on an almost daily basis. Always liked the rivalry we had and was certainly part of the reason why i wanted to get gud. So technically you had yourself to blame for getting bashed.


Wont forget the sleeping arrangements at the LAN.

Bye hun x
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Post by Snow Lynx »

Who had "Kaiserklein retires" for July?
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Post by look »

wake up to life, go back to training, give your best, then win the world again.
It's not time to give up yet.
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Post by iNcog »

Anyone who enjoyed peak ESOC patch AOE3 shouldn't be surprised by this thread at all.

The game as it is now it's just a completely new game. The old builds and strategies don't work anymore and being "good" is more about knowing how to lame broken builds than anything else. It's telling when the last tournament that had good turnout was the Legacy tournament and that the last EPL outright banned some civs for balance purposes.

It's sad that they went for incredibly whacky and strange design for the new civilizations instead of sticking to what really worked for AOE3.

Of course, it's great for singleplayer numbers and that pool of players. I'm quite sure that these DLCs are making money. That doesn't necessarily translate to health for the online community.
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I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Post by I_HaRRiiSoN_I »

That's the thing, the new civs aren't actually that whacky, they've done a great job with Italy and malta
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Post by JKProwler »

@iNcog the balance has been the best it has been in DE atm. I'm no pro but at least I feel like I have a chance to compete against most mu on QS now compared to when Sweden, inca and African civs were unbeatable
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Post by Zutazuta »

Does anyone know if @Victor_swe is still active? I heard he's looking to go pro for the 6k tour.
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Post by Dolan »

Games that are a lot more competitive than AOE3, like LoL, have a lot more broken stuff in them and that's just an accepted part of the gaming lyfe. New content is always made to be broken, so that consoomers feel the need to consoom.
Well, then this is a chance for lower-level players to go for that big pot of money. Ez for Aizamk.
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Post by MCJim »

JKProwler wrote:
10 Jul 2022, 23:00
@MCJim 3rd reason (and related to your 2nd point) is that some old players, real life has caught up to them.

Some older players don't have the time to catchup on new metas and have a hard time losing certain games because for this reason.

Hopefully there are new players will be emerging that will take the mantle
Yeah, a good example is Veni.

It will take a while, but once there's no new content being added to the game, new pros will appear everywhere.
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Re: Bye

Post by callentournies »

callentournies wrote:
10 Jul 2022, 18:23
I like reading Ted Kooser, poet laureate and etc. Ted is from a very small town in Iowa, attended my alma mater, taught at my alma mater, and lives 30 minutes from my house on a small plot of land in the country a few miles from a very small town. I grew up on a small farm in the country a few miles from a very small town.

He writes about what I know, some of it. Ted still writes with a pen on paper while the sun comes up and when garages were called car sheds. He reads calm and slow and deliberate and disciplined. There's a lot of old characters from another time, before my time. Ted bridges the border from before then, to now, until he will eventually become what he studies. Then someone'll bridge from him to them. What I mean is -- Ted writes about what I know, some of it. I write most what Ted doesn't. We come from the same place in a different time; that's different worlds.

I like reading Ted Kooser but he isn't my favorite author; he's more my dad's. Everything he writes he knows. And that's how it is. I wish he was my favorite author but he isn't, and that's OK.

After wishing I was Ted, coming to terms I'm not, I feel like Ted now -- you're an old liver spotted sun sore wrinkled dusty face who still speaks German in Nebraska, hunkered on the land you settled you refuse to ever leave. And that's a proud thing to be. Ted is honored in life, humbled.
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Post by Timurid »

we love ya @Kaiserklein. take a break and come back stronger. props to tit for impeccable game.
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Post by Goodspeed »

Dolan wrote:
11 Jul 2022, 18:15
Games that are a lot more competitive than AOE3, like LoL, have a lot more broken stuff in them and that's just an accepted part of the gaming lyfe. New content is always made to be broken, so that consoomers feel the need to consoom.
Well, then this is a chance for lower-level players to go for that big pot of money. Ez for Aizamk.
League is a 5v5 game with alternating champion picking, meaning if one team picks something strong the other team will almost always have the opportunity to either counter it or pick something also strong. It's uncommon for league games to start with one side having a decisive advantage over the other side based on which champions they picked (arguably it doesn't happen at all at the pro level), whereas in AoE3 if you have the right civ on the right map it's gg.

Also, the impact of adding new content to competitive play in league is insignificant compared to AoE3:
- Learning a new champion is much easier than learning a new civ
- Adding a 200th champion adds much less complexity to the game than adding a 15th civ
- Champion banning is a core part of any league game so if a new champion is really broken it will just get banned every time

In other words, league manages to be a competitive game despite balance issues for reasons that don't apply to AoE3.
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Post by fightinfrenchman »

Goodspeed wrote:
12 Jul 2022, 06:46

In other words, league manages to be a competitive game despite balance issues because of reasons that don't apply to AoE3.
The reason is that LoL is generally considered "cringe" compared to based games like AoE 3
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Post by flower_QAQ »

我赞同你说的,说的很对,第二场比赛的地图平衡性确实不好,竟然可以让土耳其有如此大的发挥空间,而且我还以为你会选择土耳其!。
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Re: Bye

Post by titanium_cn »

As a Chinese player, let me help translate flower_QAQ’s talk

I agree with kaiser,kaiser is right.The balance of the map in the second game is really bad,It can give Turkey a great advantage, and I thought you would choose turkey!
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Re: Bye

Post by Challenger_Marco »

flower_QAQ wrote:
12 Jul 2022, 08:40
我赞同你说的,说的很对,第二场比赛的地图平衡性确实不好,竟然可以让土耳其有如此大的发挥空间,而且我还以为你会选择土耳其!。
You would have made it top 8 ez if u played in Q1 upper brackets
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Post by Dolan »

@Goodspeed
Every analogy has its limits. I didn't imply that League is similar to AOE3 as a game. The idea was that other games also have broken stuff and they still manage to be competitive. You can think of other games if you want, maybe even AOE4.
It's been a marketing trick for gamedev studios to launch broken new content to lure people into buying it and abusing it to gain pixel points. AOE3 is no exception from this phenomenon. Games are often kept in a state of imbalance for commercial reasons.
Goodspeed wrote:
12 Jul 2022, 06:46
League is a 5v5 game with alternating champion picking, meaning if one team picks something strong the other team will almost always have the opportunity to either counter it or pick something also strong. It's uncommon for league games to start with one side having a decisive advantage over the other side based on which champions they picked (arguably it doesn't happen at all at the pro level), whereas in AoE3 if you have the right civ on the right map it's gg.
League is a 5v5 game only for pros and by pros I mean those who get enrolled in pro teams and train as 5 in a special house. What those guys play is basically another game that nobody else plays. They practice as 5, they test actual strats as 5, surprise moves as 5, etc. Which nobody does in solo queue. So of course what they do is a showcase of how the game is supposed to be played optimally, but also in the most boring, safe and calculated way. That's why pro League tourney games are a complete bore, as everything is so safe and calculated, from the picks to how they move on the map, you could say they're doing everything possible to neutralise any imbalance between team picks.
AOE3 doesn't have anything comparable to that, as there never was a pro team scene.

And actually, come to think of it, it's actually worse in League when, say, high-level players in solo queue make some weird picks that put one team at a disadvantage (for whatever reasons, like one of them is an OTP or just trolls). Because in that case you're stuck with a bad comp in a team of 5 in which a lot more things can go wrong because there are so many players. So even if you are amazing with your champ and do a great game, your impact in a game of 10 is just much smaller than the impact of an AOE3 player in a game of 6 players. A League player getting caught in the jungle by 3 opponents and destroyed multiple times is not so comparable to one guy in AOE3 getting caught raiding with just a group of cav and sacking a few to escape, when he knows he has an actual eco behind and a lot more army in his base, so it's no big deal, the force is not in one place.
Also, the impact of adding new content to competitive play in league is insignificant compared to AoE3:
- Learning a new champion is much easier than learning a new civ
Mostly true, but there are also a lot more champs and a lot more possible team compositions and combos. If let's say some players in high-level solo-q League make some weird picks, their team might end up unable to win team fights, so unable to get drakes, map objectives, etc. Which, sure, could happen in AOE3 too, but team games are a lot boomier in AOE3, there's a lot more potential to come back, to not lose everything in a team fight, to raid your way back into the game, to wall up and turn the game into treaty, etc.

Also, while learning a champ involves a lot less than learning an AOE3 civ, in League your force is concentrated in one single unit, so it's a lot more make or break. You have to invest a lot more focus in one unit and if you make one single mistake in positioning or don't get the combo right, you risk losing everything in one team fight gone wrong.
- Adding a 200th champion adds much less complexity to the game than adding a 15th civ
You could say that AOE3 has multiple champs per team, while LoL has multiple teams of one champ. So if some units in AOE3 are broken, there might still be others from the same civ that are so shitty nobody uses them. So in a way, civ imbalance in AOE3 ia also absorbed into each civ, as it's never the case that all the units of a civ are broken. While in LoL one role destroys another, like assassins jumping on an ADC and deleting it under the tower then flying back into the jungle taking no damage whatsoever, because being untargetable while getting a kill is so awesome for balance. There's a lot more infuriating absolutely broken stuff in League that is made like that by design, it's supposed to be like that. An assasin is supposed to absolutely destroy an ADC and get away with it.

So adding the 160th broken champ in LoL makes the game continue to be in an even greater state of imbalance than whatever AOE3 ever had, because the gamut of abilities and roles is so much larger in LoL, ranging from units that are very static and high damage to units that fly around like airplanes, disappear in a cloud, then they swoosh left and right and you're dead. You really have no counter to this as an ADC than just sticking with the team and making sure you don't get caught (or somewhat reducing this risk by buying armor). There isn't even any intention to balance this.

And no this is not comparable to unit counters in AOE3, because there's no unit-player limit like in LoL. Every team player can do combos and hedge their risks by mixing other units. Which you can't really do in League, your fate really depends on how you synch with the team at all times, you very rarely get so fed and strong that you could 1v5, if the champ is also broken enough to snowball like that.
- Champion banning is a core part of any league game so if a new champion is really broken it will just get banned every time
True, but you only have one ban, when there are always at least 20 broken champs which might be at different stages of being slightly nerfed but still mostly broken, etc.
In other words, league manages to be a competitive game despite balance issues for reasons that don't apply to AoE3.
Yeah like Riot actually having invested a lot into listening to the community and organising tourneys hyped as global events, with huge prizes. So indeed, League manages to still be competitive despite being broken by design due to these reasons that never applied to AOE3, because which company bothered to organise AOE3 tourneys, until 17 years later after they launched the game on the market.
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Re: Bye

Post by flower_QAQ »

Challenger_Marco wrote:
12 Jul 2022, 09:18
flower_QAQ wrote:
12 Jul 2022, 08:40
我赞同你说的,说的很对,第二场比赛的地图平衡性确实不好,竟然可以让土耳其有如此大的发挥空间,而且我还以为你会选择土耳其!。
You would have made it top 8 ez if u played in Q1 upper brackets
还是要看比赛发挥,每个选手都应该得到重视和认真对待。只是我在旅游的过程中确实没有办法熬夜,从晚上10点直到凌晨4点,这是不被接受的(GMT+8)
也许下一届QWQ
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Re: Bye

Post by look »

I_HaRRiiSoN_I wrote:
11 Jul 2022, 12:56
That's the thing, the new civs aren't actually that whacky, they've done a great job with Italy and malta
they definitely regained confidence with the two new civs, they were really very well made and it fits what it really is.
i really hated african civs for their complexities and how different they are.
I was very discouraged about having to learn those civs, until today I didn't, but Malta and Italy were really easy to learn, even easier than TAD's.

so I think they've done a great job, the balance is still good, but we have to understand that the meta is different, and that we need to know how to deal with dozens of new things.
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Post by Kaiserklein »

After reading the comments, I think I wasn't very clear. My main issue isn't the bugs, imbalances or design flaws themselves, however annoying they are. I just don't have the time nor will to basically learn a new game. Honestly, if that was the case, I'd have moved to aoe4 already.

I've already invested so much into climbing to the very top level of this game, back when I had a lot of spare time. I can't do that anymore and I really wouldn't want to anyway. And that's how I end up "learning" Malta 2 hours before I have to use it in tourney.

So as I'm not going to learn all this new stuff, I basically have 3 choices left
- keep competing from time to time with a handicap
- play casually
- quit the game

Option 1 is what happened until now and it's just frustrating. It's like being a nilla player on TAD, but more extreme. I can still win, until we have civ and map rules like in the current tourney.
Option 2 isn't my style, I enjoy trying to win in this game, not just playing casually. Besides it wouldn't be much fun with all this new content I don't know about.
So option 3 it is
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Re: Bye

Post by Snow Lynx »

Fair enough to be honest. Sometimes it's good to be honest and admit when we don't have the time or inclination to do something.
I'ts nice that DE is here - just a pity that it's a decade late for many of us who now don't have the time to really learn it.
And with TAD being 15years old and now totally replaced, it's put quite a few between a rock and a hard place.
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Re: Bye

Post by richard »

This game just gets destroyed more and more by the devs. Every day a bit more. Every day the "work" on it.
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Re: Bye

Post by Goodspeed »

Dolan wrote:
12 Jul 2022, 09:43
League is a 5v5 game only for pros and by pros I mean those who get enrolled in pro teams and train as 5 in a special house. What those guys play is basically another game that nobody else plays. They practice as 5, they test actual strats as 5, surprise moves as 5, etc. Which nobody does in solo queue. So of course what they do is a showcase of how the game is supposed to be played optimally, but also in the most boring, safe and calculated way. That's why pro League tourney games are a complete bore, as everything is so safe and calculated, from the picks to how they move on the map, you could say they're doing everything possible to neutralise any imbalance between team picks.
AOE3 doesn't have anything comparable to that, as there never was a pro team scene.
When you're talking about how competitive a game is you need to look at only the highest level of play. While people got much better at league than anyone ever got at AoE3, I think people got good enough at AoE3 for us to make judgments about how competitive it was/is as a game.

I don't agree that pro league games are a bore for the reasons you mentioned tbh. Not that I follow the scene, really. But the thing I found uncompelling about league pro games is how they drag on after they are already over. Other than that, quite entertaining to watch as long as you play the game and understand what's going on.
And actually, come to think of it, it's actually worse in League when, say, high-level players in solo queue...
Solo queue is irrelevant in a discussion about competitive play. League is a team game.
You could say that AOE3 has multiple champs per team, while LoL has multiple teams of one champ. So if some units in AOE3 are broken, there might still be others from the same civ that are so shitty nobody uses them. So in a way, civ imbalance in AOE3 ia also absorbed into each civ, as it's never the case that all the units of a civ are broken. While in LoL one role destroys another, like assassins jumping on an ADC and deleting it under the tower then flying back into the jungle taking no damage whatsoever, because being untargetable while getting a kill is so awesome for balance. There's a lot more infuriating absolutely broken stuff in League that is made like that by design, it's supposed to be like that. An assasin is supposed to absolutely destroy an ADC and get away with it.
That's not a balance issue. League being a team game completely changes how balance works. Obviously some roles are good against others and some champions hard counter others, and that's totally fine. It's a 5v5. It being a 5v5 is also why, despite champions varying in strength quite a lot, it's rare if not unheard of for games to start off with one side having a decisive advantage based on picks alone at the highest levels of play. This is very common in AoE3, on the other hand. This makes differences in strength between the civs in AoE3 a much bigger issue than differences in strength between champions in league. That is the core of why balance issues in league are much less of a problem compared to in AoE3.
Yeah like Riot actually having invested a lot into listening to the community and organising tourneys hyped as global events, with huge prizes. So indeed, League manages to still be competitive despite being broken by design due to these reasons that never applied to AOE3, because which company bothered to organise AOE3 tourneys, until 17 years later after they launched the game on the market.
As I understood it, we were talking about how well the game lends itself to competitive play. Or in other words how fun it is to play on a high level. No matter how much money MS invests in AoE3 tournaments, it's not going to be fun to play on a high level after all the new content and sweeping balance changes of the past few years. Not unless they spend years patching it to get balance to an acceptable level. I mean, to each his own of course, but the very small player base and the amount of good players quitting says enough.

As a side note, since you mentioned AoE4, I don't consider that a competitive game either. Its design does not lend itself well to high level play and even a player base of billions wouldn't change that. It's the reason it lost so many players early on, despite relatively high tournament prize pools.

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