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Trample mode
Posted: 10 Jan 2023, 11:05
by duckzilla
Does anyone have more detailed information on how trample mode works for cavalry units?
The wiki is quite vague about its functionality with:
Available to hand cavalry, the trample mode grants it an Area of Effect, at the expense of slower speed, lower attack and increased damage taken.
It raises further questions on the exact values for speed/attack reduction and, especially, on increased damage taken. I think cavalry in trample mode also harms itself, but didn't find anything about it...
Re: Trample mode
Posted: 10 Jan 2023, 11:45
by harcha
This is just from the top of my head, so someone should correct with actual values:
-sets area of effect to 1 for hand attack,
-sets hand attack to like 0.75 times the normal value,
-halves speed,
-not sure how damage that is taken is affected, maybe 2x?
Interestingly enough for the longest time Cuirs had this bug where default area effect is 2, but in trample mode area is reduced to 1 and attack also got reduced.
But if you look at the wikia, it seems like now it's fixed:
-area from 2 to 4
-hand attack reduced and rof prolonged
https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Cuirassier
However when comparing to Hussar of wikia, it's not clear as to exact multipliers/values that are used.
So it looks like it affects 5 variables:
-increased area
-reduced attack
-prolonged rate of fire
-reduced unit movement speed
-increased damage taken
*and as a bonus you get that cool V-shaped army formation
Re: Trample mode
Posted: 10 Jan 2023, 15:26
by andrewgs
<protoaction>
<name>MeleeHandAttack</name>
<damage>25.000000</damage>
<damagetype>Hand</damagetype>
<rof>1.500000</rof>
<damagecap>50.000000</damagecap>
<damagearea>2.000000</damagearea>
<damageflags>Enemy</damageflags>
</protoaction>
<protoaction>
<name>TrampleHandAttack</name>
<damage>17.000000</damage>
<damagetype>Hand</damagetype>
<rof>2.000000</rof>
<damagecap>68.000000</damagecap>
<damagearea>4.000000</damagearea>
<damageflags>Enemy</damageflags>
</protoaction>
Re: Trample mode
Posted: 10 Jan 2023, 15:52
by harcha
Ok, so that just means that there doesn't necessarily have to be a x times damage reduction, y times area increase and z times rof nerf, which would be equal across all hand cav, because each unit is defined separately.
But what about increased damage input and lower unit speed?
Re: Trample mode
Posted: 10 Jan 2023, 16:43
by andrewgs
My untested guess is:
damage input increase is caught in the damage cap (50 vs 68)
lower speed is defined in handcavalry.tactics
<tactic>Trample<speedmodifier>0.5</speedmodifier>...
see this thread
viewtopic.php?t=7577
noone tested anything tho
Re: Trample mode
Posted: 10 Jan 2023, 17:37
by harcha
Damage cap is for damage output, but trample mode is also supposed to change damage intake from enemy units.
Re: Trample mode
Posted: 10 Jan 2023, 20:08
by Madonna
Do people use trample mode? I find it tempting sometimes if you find a huge group of villagers around a mine for example but afterwards i always wonder if the damage done to my cav was worth it.
Re: Trample mode
Posted: 11 Jan 2023, 03:47
by callentournies
it's about time trample mode promotes
Re: Trample mode
Posted: 11 Jan 2023, 06:17
by harcha
Madonna wrote: ↑10 Jan 2023, 20:08
Do people use trample mode? I find it tempting sometimes if you find a huge group of villagers around a mine for example but afterwards i always wonder if the damage done to my cav was worth it.
Yeah I wonder if area hand attack does area snare.
Re: Trample mode
Posted: 11 Jan 2023, 07:00
by duckzilla
Madonna wrote: ↑10 Jan 2023, 20:08
Do people use trample mode? I find it tempting sometimes if you find a huge group of villagers around a mine for example but afterwards i always wonder if the damage done to my cav was worth it.
I just wonder whether it can be worth it, e.g. for Hakkapelits (who have both relatively high hp and melee dmg for their unit class) with that trample mode attack speed buff card.
Re: Trample mode
Posted: 11 Jan 2023, 11:45
by andrewgs
harcha wrote: ↑10 Jan 2023, 17:37
Damage cap is for damage output, but trample mode is also supposed to change damage intake from enemy units.
battle.xml
<squadmode>
<name>Trample</name>
<tactic>Trample</tactic>
<allowautopick>0</allowautopick>
<unittype>AbstractHandCavalry</unittype>
<unittype>deNatRoyalDragoon</unittype>
<unittype>deNatMercRoyalDragoon</unittype>
<targetunittype>All</targetunittype>
<stance>Defensive</stance>
<formationtype>InvertedPhalanx</formationtype>
<formationlinelinespacing>1.5</formationlinelinespacing>
<formationlinecolumnspacing>1.15</formationlinecolumnspacing>
<formationphalanxoffset>0.7</formationphalanxoffset>
<randomspacingoffset>0.25</randomspacingoffset>
<cooldowntime>5000</cooldowntime>
<transitiontimein>500</transitiontimein>
<activeicon>resources\images\icons\command\tactics_trample_cur.png</activeicon>
<availableicon>resources\images\icons\command\tactics_trample_avl.png</availableicon>
<unavailableicon>resources\images\icons\command\tactics_trample_un_avl.png</unavailableicon>
<rolloverstringid>35908</rolloverstringid>
<reflectdamage>1</reflectdamage>
<reflectdamagerate>0.35</reflectdamagerate>
<battlecrysmall>BattlecrySmall</battlecrysmall>
<battlecrymedium>BattlecryMedium</battlecrymedium>
<battlecrylarge>BattlecryLarge</battlecrylarge>
</squadmode>
Re: Trample mode
Posted: 11 Jan 2023, 15:00
by iCourt
Trample mode needs a rework from the ground up, or just replace it with an actual useful formation similar to stagger formation.
Re: Trample mode
Posted: 11 Jan 2023, 18:11
by dutchdude117
andrewgs wrote: ↑11 Jan 2023, 11:45
harcha wrote: ↑10 Jan 2023, 17:37
Damage cap is for damage output, but trample mode is also supposed to change damage intake from enemy units.
battle.xml
<squadmode>
<name>Trample</name>
<tactic>Trample</tactic>
<allowautopick>0</allowautopick>
<unittype>AbstractHandCavalry</unittype>
<unittype>deNatRoyalDragoon</unittype>
<unittype>deNatMercRoyalDragoon</unittype>
<targetunittype>All</targetunittype>
<stance>Defensive</stance>
<formationtype>InvertedPhalanx</formationtype>
<formationlinelinespacing>1.5</formationlinelinespacing>
<formationlinecolumnspacing>1.15</formationlinecolumnspacing>
<formationphalanxoffset>0.7</formationphalanxoffset>
<randomspacingoffset>0.25</randomspacingoffset>
<cooldowntime>5000</cooldowntime>
<transitiontimein>500</transitiontimein>
<activeicon>resources\images\icons\command\tactics_trample_cur.png</activeicon>
<availableicon>resources\images\icons\command\tactics_trample_avl.png</availableicon>
<unavailableicon>resources\images\icons\command\tactics_trample_un_avl.png</unavailableicon>
<rolloverstringid>35908</rolloverstringid>
<reflectdamage>1</reflectdamage>
<reflectdamagerate>0.35</reflectdamagerate>
<battlecrysmall>BattlecrySmall</battlecrysmall>
<battlecrymedium>BattlecryMedium</battlecrymedium>
<battlecrylarge>BattlecryLarge</battlecrylarge>
</squadmode>
@
andrewgs
Is it possible for you to explain a bit more what this means (if you know)? what is reflect damage and reflect damage rate.
Thanks for showing this to us!
Re: Trample mode
Posted: 12 Jan 2023, 14:14
by dutchdude117
Re: Trample mode
Posted: 12 Jan 2023, 16:24
by duckzilla
Receives 50% of the damage it deals back (Of all units damaged). Also affected by multipliers (A cavalry unit that has 30 trample damage and 2X vs infantry receives 30 damage when attacking 1 skirmisher).
Okay, that's just plain stupid.
I also like the tests:
Hussars vs skirmishers (Open field, enemy AI in [hardest], skirmishers standing ground).
1v1
In normal mode, the hussar won and lost 18HP.
In trample mode he won and lost 105HP, and micro to get them close first don’t do much either
1v3
In normal mode, the hussar won and lost around 160HP.
In trample mode he LOST, micro to 1 hit skirmishers after trample mode made him Win and survive with 3HP.
3v10
In normal mode, the hussars won and lost 439 collective HP.
In trample mode they LOST, horribly and painfully, barely killing half of the skirmishers.
It also means that the tankier a skirm is, the worse trample mode becomes, as you just trade hp between your cav and the other unit. Killing a batch of 10 strels would mean taking >400dmg yourself additionally to ranged dmg taken by the strels.