China FI vs Italy

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Italy Garja
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China FI vs Italy

Post by Garja »

Can someone at top elo please try this strat vs the typical Italy FI?

Tea Export| 700c | 700w | 1k coin | 1k wood | vill card | vill card+goat | 1.6k coin | cav armor card | skirm combat card | 8% unit hp

400f from french consulate, age to II with heaven temple, to III with summer palace and to IV with tower. Keep cons on french for 500w and 600g then swich to brits (this happens in industrial).
700w is for TPs and stagecoach (and market if you spare the last 120w -> chop 5w get first food up -> use market later)
1k wood is to reach 6villages (spread vills around res and put way point on hunt/mine), and 2 raxes as well as market ups (together with tower trickle to be toggled to what's needed).
Make full skirm+cav army (need 3:2 food:coin ratio) and occasional cav army batch mostly to rebalance macro (and cause it's just very good and useful vs italy).
Reach 220 pop (dont forget villages ups) and then upgrade your units (only need 350w 350c twice or 3 times if also upping the meteor right away). Can use the last 5-10 pop for brit cons petards.

Possible adjustement if the strat is a bit short of tempo:
- skip one of the vill cards and send like 1.6k coin or age4 units instead
- skip both vills cards and send 2 age4 unit cards

It's lot of unit pop and giant eco. I mean it's a nr10 strat but so is Italy FI. Someone should give this a try.
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Italy Don Nameless
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Re: China FI vs Italy

Post by Don Nameless »

In 4 ages it is convenient to use chu ko nu and pikemen who climb better than skirms and swordsmen thanks to old han, you sacrifice range but you have a lot of damage and life in return as well as having 4.5 speed, you use money for horses and with them do body block while with chu ko and pike you clean the rest, you have a macro for 3 res but you could play a lot of expeditions for the mass. I also tried this start with the French consulate but nothing changes in FF timing maybe basically something in FI, obviously with treasures the shipment arrives first and all the timing changes there.
For the rest everything seems good against Italy but it is to be seen in various games from multiple players and main China Vs main Italy
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Italy Garja
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Re: China FI vs Italy

Post by Garja »

I already tested old han FI (and also FF and FI with iron troops and cav batch) and at the end of the day the standard FI is jsut better. Old han reform card is nerfed compared to RE legacy and also you need to upgrade units in age3 too which is annoying not because of res but becasue it kills tempo (btw you don't have to macro for 3 res because you go for the choku+steppe army, pikes are useless here).
Also current old han chokunus are actually mediocre when it's ageIV vs ageIV no attrition war (steppes are a bit better because theya re one pop but worth 1.5 and they have high siege and 7 speed which are desirable qualities vs Italy). On legacy chokus used to be OP because saving resources was somewhat of a factor but in this case specifcially it is only about who can put the most premium stuff on the field, and chokunus don't qualify for that.
As for the consulate it is just because the french crates are good and in a nr10 scenario you can always ship them, not caring about switching to brits until later. Also you want a TP and 2v card only isn't that great. Also can use nothern refugees as a 3rd vill card when you're maxed on villages. In theory you do age faster to 2 if you use 4v on wonder, but I usually only use 3 (or 2 even) because dropping the wonder slightly earlier (3.10 iirc).
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Italy Don Nameless
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Re: China FI vs Italy

Post by Don Nameless »

I think you are right about cost and quality, I am still too old fashioned and obsessed with chu ko nu and pike. It was a nerf that served.
I don't like using steppe cavalry and keshik they look like paper mache, I'm the type who likes to use quality cavalry but that's just my preference.
We hope that someone will try thiscmatch up in live on twitch.
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Re: China FI vs Italy

Post by Miyawaki Sakura »

In theory, China greed Fi is meaningless because they cannot deal with 7500 hp walls + culvs + op skrims.
Also, the nr10 style is too dangerous because Italy can do 2falcs semi fi.
At the same time, Italy has more troops and more infrastructure.
I don't know if this would be useful if architect nerf were to be done
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Re: China FI vs Italy

Post by Garja »

Miyawaki Sakura wrote: ↑
13 Apr 2023, 09:21
In theory, China greed Fi is meaningless because they cannot deal with 7500 hp walls + culvs + op skrims.
Also, the nr10 style is too dangerous because Italy can do 2falcs semi fi.
At the same time, Italy has more troops and more infrastructure.
I don't know if this would be useful if architect nerf were to be done
Well ye, if Italy was nerfed properly then this strat wouldn't be a thing, although DE meta is oriented toward the industrial age anyway. It is mostly a matter of when squeezing in the age up. In fact, China was one of the legacy civs that used to frequently go for a semi FI so it only makes sense to do it in this MU too.
I don't quite understand why everyone thinks walls and culvs are that relevant. Culvs are useless if there is no artillery on the field, you're literally wasting pop space with them. As China you just go full skirm cav and if the opponent makes some artillery you just run over him. Walls starts to be a problem only if someone abuses them all over the map, which is something you should try to prevent and which is a different kind of issue than Italy being OP.
Just to clarify, you don't actually need siege power against Italy unless you're in a winning position. Actually that applies to any civ. Except for rare cases, you are only entitled to start sieging if you already built an advantage by winning battles.
As for the skirms, they're not exceptionally good against other skirms. They are considered OP mostly because they shadow tech and because of the insane speed. But speed matters mostly for kiting which is not a thing in skirm wars. Now, China can't exactly win a skirm war because of the banner armies, but they compensate for that with exceptionally good cav and 20 extra pop space.
Also yes they have occasional stun and speed boost (dumb mechanics imo) but it still doesn't change things too much. At the end of the day with maxed out armies they're not very different than other premium skirms like forest prowlers. China army with proper upgrades is just as good if not better.
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Re: China FI vs Italy

Post by callentournies »

think you need siege power vs advanced fortifications 7 tower and 7500 hp walls
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Greece BrookG
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Re: China FI vs Italy

Post by BrookG »

Someone said kynesie dealt with italy as aztecs using arrow knights fyi.
Correlation doesn't mean causation.
http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

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Re: China FI vs Italy

Post by helln00 »

maybe also add in that age 4 skirm+ hand mortar army card just to be annoying at the Italian base, its 22 skirms and 8 hand mortars for 1.5k food so that + forbidden army might be better then trying to mass from the skirm + cav army

also add in monglian scourge for x2 damage against the italian skirms
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Re: China FI vs Italy

Post by a forum ghost »

BrookG wrote: ↑
13 Apr 2023, 20:36
Someone said kynesie dealt with italy as aztecs using arrow knights fyi.
I saw a game of Kynesie (Aztecs) vs Freaky (Italy) on Rockies casted by Tabben some days ago. Kynesie did this arrow knight FI thing and lost to papal lancers.

Unfortunately, I don't seem to be able to find the cast because Tabben deletes a lot of his twitch videos. But I don't think this is the answer to Italy FI, because Freaky was able to beat with a simple papal lancer shipment from the basilica.

On the topic: I feel like cav + skirm will lose to halb/musk + artillery that Italy do quite a lot.

Now, the build might work. I did not tested myself. But I think against Italy you kind of need at least some hand mortars. I just think a composition like papal bombards protected by papal guards + halbediers probably will wreck cav + skirm.
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Re: China FI vs Italy

Post by callentournies »

@tabben is this true? R U a CDer?
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And plucked, or moth, plucked
From flowers or pollen froth
To wither on a young child’s
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Me a ribbon, they, all dead
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Re: China FI vs Italy

Post by Garja »

a forum ghost wrote: ↑
14 Apr 2023, 17:55
On the topic: I feel like cav + skirm will lose to halb/musk + artillery that Italy do quite a lot.

Now, the build might work. I did not tested myself. But I think against Italy you kind of need at least some hand mortars. I just think a composition like papal bombards protected by papal guards + halbediers probably will wreck cav + skirm.
People don't usually make musks and halbs, mostly skirms. If they do make musks, they're giving up good part of Italy advantage as they have to upgrade musks twice.
Also skirm+cav with upgrades (especially repelling volley) still beats halb+artillery (you dont chase the cannons, you just let cav fight halbs with proper concave and skirms shoot behind).
But ye you might need some anti artillery early on just to make your life easier. Can use a card for mortars or similar.
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Re: China FI vs Italy

Post by a forum ghost »

Garja wrote: ↑
14 Apr 2023, 22:25
People don't usually make musks and halbs, mostly skirms. If they do make musks, they're giving up good part of Italy advantage as they have to upgrade musks twice.
Also skirm+cav with upgrades (especially repelling volley) still beats halb+artillery (you dont chase the cannons, you just let cav fight halbs with proper concave and skirms shoot behind).
But ye you might need some anti artillery early on just to make your life easier. Can use a card for mortars or similar.
For what I seem, Italy generally do a push with papal guards from the age up with some combination of the 2 papal bombards, bourbon allies and 2 culv and 2 falcs shipments, and them proceed to transition into skirmisher afterwards.

But yeah, I forgot that China have 11 hand mortars shipment in age4. I guess is such and underused card that I forgot that it existed. xD

I guess you could have this card in deck in case of a artillery-heavy push from Italy.
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Italy Garja
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Re: China FI vs Italy

Post by Garja »

callentournies wrote: ↑
13 Apr 2023, 19:01
think you need siege power vs advanced fortifications 7 tower and 7500 hp walls
What about just camping outside his base with trade monopoly.
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