Feedback on New Code of Conduct

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India Challenger_Marco
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Feedback on New Code of Conduct

Post by Challenger_Marco »

The thread viewtopic.php?p=584968#p584968 being locked is not because of CoC but rather a mistake & it's been rectified accordingly.

And we would like feedback from the community about the new rules . The new CoC dated from March 4th 2023 will be in effect immediately soon so if you think any rule needs leniency or seems unfair or need improvement or it's just perfect let us know and feel free to write your thoughts we want best for the users & admins on this one and having proper content flowing without any hassle .

Note: Vast majority of the rules will be still be kept intact exception the degree of it being implied to be discussed and determined in this thread.

We hope to see constructive criticism below without diving into off-topic and keeping integrity of the post.

Code of Conduct
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Suriname kaister
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Re: Feedback on New Code of Conduct

Post by kaister »

ESOC's new code of conduct does a fantastic job of simulating what grade school would be like if you could only be punished for things which happened when the teacher was looking.

it is obviously failing to "create a healthy environment and to foster the growth of both community and play".
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Re: Feedback on New Code of Conduct

Post by iNcog »

Same pattern has been ongoing since 2015. Change rules, change staff, moderation is the same. You guys are doing well overall but drama will always seep through from the same sources
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Feedback on New Code of Conduct

Post by Thrar »

I think in past years the issue was less with the rules and more with their selective, inconsistent application. Things like "respectful conduct" are great in theory, but will they be enforced even if the person breaking the rule is a top 10 player admired for their ability? If not, over time that behavior takes hold and people start seeing it as acceptable.

On the specific rules:
  • Being disrespectful or rude to new players - I would remove the new here, it should apply to all players.
  • Bring off topic or overly critical discussions back on topic through pointed responses - It's not clear to me what this means. What is the intended way for members to deal with off-topic discussions? Why is going back on topic discouraged? Is the idea that this should be left to the mods?
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Re: Feedback on New Code of Conduct

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Post by callentournies »

an original thread can not break COC and still become a thing that breaks COC, because of the comments. Because threads are their comments, too.

Unjerking, breeze is subject to a massive in-group negative bias. maybe that's warranted, maybe not, but it's real.

i love oliveza and breeze made up lies to insult me to my digital face for 30 minutes (never been bullied harder), but how can stream sniping ever be proven. actually good players like kaiser and h2o know with a high confidence where the other hero is at most times in age 1, and act on it. if you see a hero and a dog patrolling a route, could a player think, what's he trying to obscure? It makes me think of how a high percentage of people enter a place with a left or a right, and go a certain way. im sure something similar can be applied to aoe starts ngl. But the thread became a place to gang up

the COC is fine, of course it's just a bunch of language which takes giant societies centuries to optimize, and a bunch of courts, so what good is anything actually at all, here.

What good is a rule against calling someone a racist, if they're actually a racist? Group-think comes in and corrupts. it's no easy job, being a moderator. im just not having fun. Maybe that’s the best society: no one has any fun.
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Re: Feedback on New Code of Conduct

Post by Challenger_Marco »

Thrar wrote: ↑
16 Apr 2023, 03:35

Things like "respectful conduct" are great in theory, but will they be enforced even if the person breaking the rule is a top 10 player admired for their ability? If not, over time that behavior takes hold and people start seeing it as acceptable.
Yes they will be enforced on anyone who are breaking the rules .
However it should not be confused with people having banter on the forums as we are not against it.
If someone feels offended or have issue with the post they should report it. (Stack reporting on someone without any valid reason will have to face consequences)

On Side note: ESOC is not responsible for the problems happening outside of ESOC platforms and rules hereby apply within our domain.

On the specific rules:
  • Being disrespectful or rude to new players - I would remove the new here, it should apply to all players.
Yes this does apply to all players as it breaks first permitted conduct • Treat server members with respect and courtesy
Bring off topic or overly critical discussions back on topic through pointed responses - It's not clear to me what this means. What is the intended way for members to deal with off-topic discussions? Why is going back on topic discouraged? Is the idea that this should be left to the mods?
An example being derailing the thread and going back to the discussion repeatedly which doesn't help/contribute to the original post. Off-topic forums will have leniency in this than the general post on the forums because of it's nature however feel free to report any post if you see any issue so we can look into it.
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Re: Feedback on New Code of Conduct

Post by Oliveza »

Hi Guys,
this is my opinion on the topic:

In theory the new COC is a good thing and i can get why you guys implemented it.
I for myself also dont like to read flaming and insults but some things just have to be said.

As far as i know the goal of the new CoC was to get new ppl to stick around and make the community more healthy and friendly overall,
but i think in some wierd way exactly the opposite of that is happening.
People dont like to post and be on the forums, if they feel they are not allowed to post because they first have to read 3pages of COC and then still be afraid to do something wrong because someone else comments on their thread.

The most baffling thing to me is that the COC helps certain individuals to restrict free speech if it doesn’t match their perception.
One in particular who just whines around, annoying admins and therefore has more influence on the decision making than he should ever have.

The loudest will be heard
and if you are the no1 player that applies even more.

In my opinion the moderation and enforcement of the COC should be solely done by the admins and not some pseudo Trump
who runs around spreading misinformation and some start believing him because he is the loudest.
:mds: > BIGS
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Italy Don Nameless
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Re: Feedback on New Code of Conduct

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Post by Don Nameless »

In itself the coc is fine but it is the moderators who carry out risky actions like the previous one, so it will never work I understand that the moderator reserves the right to black out, delete etc but it is one thing to black out a thread or delete it and one thing is to moderate for good and delete the message that breaks the coc and warn the user who wrote that message. I think it's more of a "training" for moderators to handle difficult and unpleasant situations and not just go the easy route of obscuring blocking and deleting as was often done in the past.
If the thread is good but gets invaded by 2 trolls why delete or block something good and not directly block 2 trolls?
Here's how I see it.
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Re: Feedback on New Code of Conduct

Post by EliteRifleman »

I, particularly, totally agree with deleting or closing a post that has become controversial. It is used very often in larger and more serious forums (for example, the official AoE forum) and is really effective, avoids problems, relieves the work of moderators and works as a way to direct the discussion of the entire forum closer to what is expected, that the CoC proposes.

For example, in the AoE3 forum, there was a discussion about the inclusion of Poles as a civilization, people started posting racist and xenophobic comments against Poles, they tried to moderate the comments, but the discussion got out of hand. Finally, the moderation team (which also includes professional people, who are paid and instructed in this) decided to close the post (trollers tried to make similar topics, and they were also closed), in the end, the problem was solved, no user reposted this kind of comments and threads. And before you say it, no, the users who participated in that drama continued their life on the forum as usual, because let's be honest, if you like a place, you're not leaving because you can't flame or be a troller.

I say this from my 100% personal experience.

PS: I think that if ESOC wants to one day work closely with Microsoft or Red Bull to bring AoE3 to E-sports, then it should be more strict with this kind of situation, no serious company nowadays would like to work with an organization where These kinds of situations are tolerated.
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Italy Don Nameless
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Re: Feedback on New Code of Conduct

Post by Don Nameless »

EliteRifleman wrote: ↑
16 Apr 2023, 13:36
I, particularly, totally agree with deleting or closing a post that has become controversial. It is used very often in larger and more serious forums (for example, the official AoE forum) and is really effective, avoids problems, relieves the work of moderators and works as a way to direct the discussion of the entire forum closer to what is expected, that the CoC proposes.

For example, in the AoE3 forum, there was a discussion about the inclusion of Poles as a civilization, people started posting racist and xenophobic comments against Poles, they tried to moderate the comments, but the discussion got out of hand. Finally, the moderation team (which also includes professional people, who are paid and instructed in this) decided to close the post (trollers tried to make similar topics, and they were also closed), in the end, the problem was solved, no user reposted this kind of comments and threads. And before you say it, no, the users who participated in that drama continued their life on the forum as usual, because let's be honest, if you like a place, you're not leaving because you can't flame or be a troller.

I say this from my 100% personal experience.

PS: I think that if ESOC wants to one day work closely with Microsoft or Red Bull to bring AoE3 to E-sports, then it should be more strict with this kind of situation, no serious company nowadays would like to work with an organization where These kinds of situations are tolerated.
I understand the situation but this is a useless way and if, as I see on the other forum, comments are written for example on a balanced discussion from 2 years ago and the comment is closed, this is fine because it is old and loses meaning over time but in the case that you described after various warnings it is useless to close a thread penalizing those who were talking seriously it is the most useless thing that exists because you do not only penalize them but anyone who was discussing seriously and according to the coc and the troll creates endlessly other threads for trolling so you first warn the user and delete the message and after type 3 warnings you ban it and solve the problem without closing anything and not penalizing everyone.
Like when for a wrong 5 people are unjustly involved instead of only 1 and then this person will continue to do damage because she knows that other people are involved.
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Italy Don Nameless
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Re: Feedback on New Code of Conduct

Post by Don Nameless »

I don't know if you are paid for this but in your case like any moderator it's easy to close a thread by clicking 2 buttons and it ends, but the people who were frequenting that thread before being invaded by trolls were discussing and sometimes these discussions abruptly stop without having an end or continuing with a logical thread, I can open a new thread to rewrite the whole thing and continue the discussion why was there a troll that closed the thread? It doesn't look very normal from a human point of view.
It's not even normal that there are trolls but unfortunately as there are people who want to discuss normally there are also other people who want to generate chaos and trolls must be moderated not the discussion
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Re: Feedback on New Code of Conduct

Post by Yukietti »

is ESOC really an ESOC without drama?
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Re: Feedback on New Code of Conduct

Post by EliteRifleman »

Don Nameless wrote: ↑
16 Apr 2023, 14:42
I don't know if you are paid for this but in your case like any moderator it's easy to close a thread by clicking 2 buttons and it ends, but the people who were frequenting that thread before being invaded by trolls were discussing and sometimes these discussions abruptly stop without having an end or continuing with a logical thread, I can open a new thread to rewrite the whole thing and continue the discussion why was there a troll that closed the thread? It doesn't look very normal from a human point of view.
It's not even normal that there are trolls but unfortunately as there are people who want to discuss normally there are also other people who want to generate chaos and trolls must be moderated not the discussion
Normally, I follow a flowchart, which is more or less like this.

1- I find the problem thread (reports)
2- I check the context
3- I look for the focus of the problem.
4- The most problematic users receive a friendly warning (or official, if it is very serious or re-incisive)
5- The most problematic comments are eliminated in extreme cases.
6- A general comment is sent, asking for moderation and respect.
7- The discussion continues to be moderated and closely monitored.
8- If that users do not pay attention, do not follow the warnings, and the discussion already has 5-10 offtopics comments from different users, then the post is closed.

Why this last? Well, because the discussion has already been lost and there is no other way to solve the problem. Well, in fact, if it exists, removing everything offtopic comments and applying silence (or ban in extreme cases) to everyone involved.
I don't know about you, but I prefer to cut my losses, closing the post, and not banning half the forum in the process.
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Italy Don Nameless
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Re: Feedback on New Code of Conduct

Post by Don Nameless »

EliteRifleman wrote: ↑
16 Apr 2023, 15:21
Don Nameless wrote: ↑
16 Apr 2023, 14:42
I don't know if you are paid for this but in your case like any moderator it's easy to close a thread by clicking 2 buttons and it ends, but the people who were frequenting that thread before being invaded by trolls were discussing and sometimes these discussions abruptly stop without having an end or continuing with a logical thread, I can open a new thread to rewrite the whole thing and continue the discussion why was there a troll that closed the thread? It doesn't look very normal from a human point of view.
It's not even normal that there are trolls but unfortunately as there are people who want to discuss normally there are also other people who want to generate chaos and trolls must be moderated not the discussion
Normally, I follow a flowchart, which is more or less like this.

1- I find the problem thread (reports)
2- I check the context
3- I look for the focus of the problem.
4- The most problematic users receive a friendly warning (or official, if it is very serious or re-incisive)
5- The most problematic comments are eliminated in extreme cases.
6- A general comment is sent, asking for moderation and respect.
7- The discussion continues to be moderated and closely monitored.
8- If that users do not pay attention, do not follow the warnings, and the discussion already has 5-10 offtopics comments from different users, then the post is closed.

Why this last? Well, because the discussion has already been lost and there is no other way to solve the problem. Well, in fact, if it exists, removing everything offtopic comments and applying silence (or ban in extreme cases) to everyone involved.
I don't know about you, but I prefer to cut my losses, closing the post, and not banning half the forum in the process.
Just as it is. I know how you do your job, I've seen it 2 times. I don't agree with point 8, if they do it on purpose why don't they get a punishment? A temporary ban after certain warnings, I don't remember the ageofempires.com coc by heart but something like this could be applied here and I think it is implemented in the Esoc coc, the punishment must be paid by those who did the damage, not those who did not nothing and by doing nothing I mean whoever was following the discussion correctly.
I don't think half of the forum is banned, I think you're quick to ban anyone who intends to continue after the warnings, if you warn me I'll calm down or at least it's for this but if I continue why not ban me? I looked for it and you warned me but instead you don't ban me close the thread and I open another and another and we go into an infinite loop?
This is your job so it's not my problem but I give this advice which I still find effective in moderating in a more individual way without serious repercussions, obviously you have to do one step more than normal but at least the others can continue the discussion after that the troll cannot invade the thread, the discussion is never lost if it has a joint and whoever is not interested in following the troll should stop writing while waiting for moderation.
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Re: Feedback on New Code of Conduct

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Post by Goodspeed »

So it's a bit bloated.

The only reason to write a detailed set of rules at all is if you want accountability for the staff. Because with detailed rules a staff decision can be checked against the rules by any user. That would be fine but you'd need a LOT more detail than "don't be rude to new players" because who defines "rude"? Still the staff.

The only rules should be "use English" and "don't be a dick". The staff decides when someone was a dick. If needed you discuss internally what constitutes a dick and if certain staff members often get this wrong, you talk to them and set them straight. If needed you can make an internal guide for mods on when to intervene and how, to help them do their job. But the public-facing CoC should be as short as possible.

This CoC is basically the two rules I mentioned, but in 500 words instead of 7. I recommend removing the other 493.
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Re: Feedback on New Code of Conduct

Post by richard »

The Code of Conduct is good, but could be much better. We are Captains after all.

I m offering the following positive Solution: Sir Callen could write a new Code of Conduct and we let the Community vote if it shall be applied.
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Re: Feedback on New Code of Conduct

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Post by Goodspeed »

EliteRifleman wrote: ↑
16 Apr 2023, 15:21
Don Nameless wrote: ↑
16 Apr 2023, 14:42
I don't know if you are paid for this but in your case like any moderator it's easy to close a thread by clicking 2 buttons and it ends, but the people who were frequenting that thread before being invaded by trolls were discussing and sometimes these discussions abruptly stop without having an end or continuing with a logical thread, I can open a new thread to rewrite the whole thing and continue the discussion why was there a troll that closed the thread? It doesn't look very normal from a human point of view.
It's not even normal that there are trolls but unfortunately as there are people who want to discuss normally there are also other people who want to generate chaos and trolls must be moderated not the discussion
Normally, I follow a flowchart, which is more or less like this.

1- I find the problem thread (reports)
2- I check the context
3- I look for the focus of the problem.
4- The most problematic users receive a friendly warning (or official, if it is very serious or re-incisive)
5- The most problematic comments are eliminated in extreme cases.
6- A general comment is sent, asking for moderation and respect.
7- The discussion continues to be moderated and closely monitored.
8- If that users do not pay attention, do not follow the warnings, and the discussion already has 5-10 offtopics comments from different users, then the post is closed.

Why this last? Well, because the discussion has already been lost and there is no other way to solve the problem. Well, in fact, if it exists, removing everything offtopic comments and applying silence (or ban in extreme cases) to everyone involved.
I don't know about you, but I prefer to cut my losses, closing the post, and not banning half the forum in the process.
This is a perfect flowchart as long as locking is an absolute last resort. It is highly annoying to forum members when posts get locked and they still had thoughts on the matter.

Historically ESOC mods have resorted to locking threads too often imo. It's almost always possible to save a thread by steering the discussion and removing specific members from it.
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Re: Feedback on New Code of Conduct

Post by a forum ghost »

EliteRifleman wrote: ↑
16 Apr 2023, 13:36
I, particularly, totally agree with deleting or closing a post that has become controversial. It is used very often in larger and more serious forums (for example, the official AoE forum) and is really effective, avoids problems, relieves the work of moderators and works as a way to direct the discussion of the entire forum closer to what is expected, that the CoC proposes.

For example, in the AoE3 forum, there was a discussion about the inclusion of Poles as a civilization, people started posting racist and xenophobic comments against Poles, they tried to moderate the comments, but the discussion got out of hand. Finally, the moderation team (which also includes professional people, who are paid and instructed in this) decided to close the post (trollers tried to make similar topics, and they were also closed), in the end, the problem was solved, no user reposted this kind of comments and threads. And before you say it, no, the users who participated in that drama continued their life on the forum as usual, because let's be honest, if you like a place, you're not leaving because you can't flame or be a troller.

I say this from my 100% personal experience.

PS: I think that if ESOC wants to one day work closely with Microsoft or Red Bull to bring AoE3 to E-sports, then it should be more strict with this kind of situation, no serious company nowadays would like to work with an organization where These kinds of situations are tolerated.
I don't understand why the COC need to be so rigid. I don't found out the toxicity on this community to be nowhere near as high to justify such an nazi code of conduct where threads gets locked because someone did some joke or a trolly comment.

Now, I know you are Argentinian, so you probably like nazis. But is weird from other mods to execute such an unnecessarily rigid COC.

And I think is idiotic for ESOC to try to appeal to Microsoft and Redbull. This game is super niche and will never be a e-sport thing. I much rather have an small and interesting community with trolls, jokes and some level of tension than having a bland community in some silly attempt do appeal for the game be something that will never be.

User was given a timeout for this post.
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Re: Feedback on New Code of Conduct

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Post by edeholland »

a forum ghost wrote: ↑
16 Apr 2023, 22:29
EliteRifleman wrote: ↑
16 Apr 2023, 13:36
I, particularly, totally agree with deleting or closing a post that has become controversial. It is used very often in larger and more serious forums (for example, the official AoE forum) and is really effective, avoids problems, relieves the work of moderators and works as a way to direct the discussion of the entire forum closer to what is expected, that the CoC proposes.

For example, in the AoE3 forum, there was a discussion about the inclusion of Poles as a civilization, people started posting racist and xenophobic comments against Poles, they tried to moderate the comments, but the discussion got out of hand. Finally, the moderation team (which also includes professional people, who are paid and instructed in this) decided to close the post (trollers tried to make similar topics, and they were also closed), in the end, the problem was solved, no user reposted this kind of comments and threads. And before you say it, no, the users who participated in that drama continued their life on the forum as usual, because let's be honest, if you like a place, you're not leaving because you can't flame or be a troller.

I say this from my 100% personal experience.

PS: I think that if ESOC wants to one day work closely with Microsoft or Red Bull to bring AoE3 to E-sports, then it should be more strict with this kind of situation, no serious company nowadays would like to work with an organization where These kinds of situations are tolerated.
I don't understand why the COC need to be so rigid. I don't found out the toxicity on this community to be nowhere near as high to justify such an nazi code of conduct where threads gets locked because someone did some joke or a trolly comment.

Now, I know you are Argentinian, so you probably like nazis. But is weird from other mods to execute such an unnecessarily rigid COC.

And I think is idiotic for ESOC to try to appeal to Microsoft and Redbull. This game is super niche and will never be a e-sport thing. I much rather have an small and interesting community with trolls, jokes and some level of tension than having a bland community in some silly attempt do appeal for the game be something that will never be.
Bolded text is you breaking the CoC, the forum rules and being a dick. Considering this behaviour isn't new for you, I'm issueing a temporary ban.
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Re: Feedback on New Code of Conduct

Post by edeholland »

On topic: I agree with Goodspeed. I believe Elite's method is effective for the moderators, I don't think it's effective for creating an environment for discussion and creating a community. Punishing the original poster for other being trolling in their responses just means the trolls have won. I think the given anecdote is a perfect example of how poor moderation means trolls can run a thread into the ground. Especially the "they tried to moderate the comments" seems very strange to me. How can they try but not succeed, what was actually done there, just deleting posts?
For example, in the AoE3 forum, there was a discussion about the inclusion of Poles as a civilization, people started posting racist and xenophobic comments against Poles, they tried to moderate the comments, but the discussion got out of hand. Finally, the moderation team (which also includes professional people, who are paid and instructed in this) decided to close the post (trollers tried to make similar topics, and they were also closed), in the end, the problem was solved, no user reposted this kind of comments and threads. And before you say it, no, the users who participated in that drama continued their life on the forum as usual, because let's be honest, if you like a place, you're not leaving because you can't flame or be a troller.
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Re: Feedback on New Code of Conduct

Post by speedflyer »

hi guys , just wanted to give some feedback on the new COC.

I got banned on ESOC channel for saying breeze is otto vs kaiser dutch. So i wonder where did i broke the COC , or if the mods are just bad or abusing their little power ? idk. We can also see on that screen that someone also say it , i hope he got ban aswell ?

Been years that ESOC is suffering from bad moderators , but hell yeah we come to a point where even saying civ names grant you a ban :D This was full guessing , no need to be so smart to guess it in g5 , but looks like mods couldnt do it and prefer ban instead of thinking.

we could also discuss the fact that ESOC is casting with delay a series that is on revnak stream without delay , but oh well , we wont go that far for ESOC , first they should respect their casters i guess.
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I hope Zoi and his team of faithful minions can stop demonizing people
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Re: Feedback on New Code of Conduct

Post by callentournies »

Well of course the cast is delayed. There’s a minimum 3 minutes until games can be observed from the browser.
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Re: Feedback on New Code of Conduct

Post by speedflyer »

callentournies wrote: ↑
19 May 2023, 16:00
Well of course the cast is delayed. There’s a minimum 3 minutes until games can be observed from the browser.
thats not my point. OFC it is delayed as u said
I hope Zoi and his team of faithful minions can stop demonizing people
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Re: Feedback on New Code of Conduct

Post by callentournies »

Then point is rev shouldn’t stream?

We’re too dead a game to enforce streaming restrictions imo. Last time someone did, Fitzbro left the scene :(((

Up to viewers to exercise willpower to not have the game spoiled for them if they don’t wish. Wasn’t too hard for me to just watch the ESOC stream.

Still a better compromise is probably rev streaming with a delay
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Re: Feedback on New Code of Conduct

Post by Hazza54321 »

i agree esoc twitch moderation has really been piss poor lately

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