How to lame Dutch?

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Argentina Jets
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How to lame Dutch?

Post by Jets »

I've genuinely tried everything against them, with France and Spain mainly, I have 50+ games on ranked, I can assure you that 20 of them losses are against Dutch.

Spain age 2 rush, semi FF, FF, FI, semi FF with water boom, fast revolt, tp start, market start, stage coach. None of them works while Dutch can out mass your army just sitting in their base producing coin.
Same goes with France.

Is there anything I'm missing? Timings and focuses? I always aim for falcs as 1st shipment with some batches of light & heavy inf, still, the Ruyter batches keep coming, and coming, and coming, making any cav/artillery shipment useless.

Or is it just as simple as winning every skirm/goon fight?
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Canada Mitoe
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Re: How to lame Dutch?

Post by Mitoe »

I've always found an aggressive Spanish FF to be especially difficult to deal with as Dutch. What specifically do you usually do in that matchup when you FF? What shipments, age up politicians, etc.? Where do you focus your pressure?
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Great Britain CuCkO0
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Re: How to lame Dutch?

Post by CuCkO0 »

japan
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Re: How to lame Dutch?

Post by Kawapasaka »

A Spanish rush is too easily shut down by CM, and semi-FFs are also pretty sad and useless with no fast age. A water boom could be good but opens up more counter-play (5 banks and 3 fluyts at like 8:40, easy artillery spam, etc.), and once again no fast age makes things awkward. So the FF is the best and easiest option. You can go super aggressive with 8 pikes after 700w, 8 pike age-up and 2 falcs first card but 5v after 700w, 4 huss age-up and massing a bit first before shipping falcs is usually more adaptable. If you see Dutch has gone for a relatively low eco build e.g. 3 bank FF, Spanish Gold and 1kw can do well too. And of course ATP on any map where it's viable is great. Sometimes Dutch tries to destroy the forward tower with 8 pikes and 5 huss but 7 rods after 700w and dog spam should probably hold this.

As French this MU is easiest to play with age 2 musk huss aggression. On a TP map you can open with a stable and 5 huss like a normal cav semi (4cdb, 700w, 700c) then make 2 forward raxes with 700w and spam musk/huss with the gold and pressure. From there you can ship 600w and stagecoach if there's a good TP line, 8 bows and commit to age 2 pressure for longer if Dutch is staying age 2 longer, or 600c and age then make skirms from the 2 forward raxes and goons, use a couple of unit shipments to mass and end the game with 2 falcs.
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Re: How to lame Dutch?

Post by m007_ »

u can go with ottoman jani abus or ff also u can play aztec,ind, inc depand on ur play they are all good vs dutch
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India _DB_
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Re: How to lame Dutch?

Post by _DB_ »

What can Dutch do vs Germany?
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France chronique
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Re: How to lame Dutch?

Post by chronique »

Spain is the dutch hard counter. It's very difficult for duthc to deal with 2 falc + HI shipment + skirm prod. Most of the time i go for the pik ff (16 pik + 2falc). Don't wait your falc, push as soon as you can, kill bank (it's a lot of xp for their hp). To me the best way for dutch is aging super fast (i like the 2 bank + tp age up), you can age in 7.10 with almost 2 shipements.
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Re: How to lame Dutch?

Post by King_Felipe »

I win almost everygame I play vs Dutch with brits. Early agression with musk huss/while mannor booming, follow the age up with 700g and after that longbow-goon. My BO is 3v, 700w, 5v, 600w, 700g
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Re: How to lame Dutch?

Post by Jets »

Mitoe wrote:I've always found an aggressive Spanish FF to be especially difficult to deal with as Dutch. What specifically do you usually do in that matchup when you FF? What shipments, age up politicians, etc.? Where do you focus your pressure?
3vills > 700c >700w > 2falcs > Spanish gold(if the push didn't work)

While aging I build a barracks, a market and houses asap, maybe even a church for the xp bonus.
I age with the 9xbows, train some musks, upgrade them, train some skirms. By the time I have a mass of 9xbow, 15 musks, 5skirms, the falcs should be ready. I push, but every Dutch player does the same, send suicidal ruyters to kill my falcs, which they accomplish with their ruyter shipment, after that, they win by range advantage.
And Spain eco isn't that great, even with double racks I can't keep up with the skirm mass they produce.
Maybe all in pikemen+falc could destroy them banks asap.
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Re: How to lame Dutch?

Post by helln00 »

I mean a very lame thing I have been doing against dutch as china ( probably only works on lower levels) is to ff with a foward village then go french consulate intervention for the grens combined with black flag armies ( shipment order is usally intervention > changdao > skirms > cav ).

It is hilarious how fast the banks goes down to the grens and I think most dutch players I have seen so far just give up after the first bank dies
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Re: How to lame Dutch?

Post by Le Hussard sur le toit »

Jets wrote:
Mitoe wrote:I've always found an aggressive Spanish FF to be especially difficult to deal with as Dutch. What specifically do you usually do in that matchup when you FF? What shipments, age up politicians, etc.? Where do you focus your pressure?
3vills > 700c >700w > 2falcs > Spanish gold(if the push didn't work)

While aging I build a barracks, a market and houses asap, maybe even a church for the xp bonus.
I age with the 9xbows, train some musks, upgrade them, train some skirms. By the time I have a mass of 9xbow, 15 musks, 5skirms, the falcs should be ready. I push, but every Dutch player does the same, send suicidal ruyters to kill my falcs, which they accomplish with their ruyter shipment, after that, they win by range advantage.
And Spain eco isn't that great, even with double racks I can't keep up with the skirm mass they produce.
Maybe all in pikemen+falc could destroy them banks asap.
I'm certainly in no way a good player, but it seems to me you are missing a shipment between 700w and 2 falcs. Shouldn't you send either 8 pikes (for an all in) or 5 vills (for eco play). Both shipments should do a huge difference by the time your falcs arrive.
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Re: How to lame Dutch?

Post by flontier »

Jets wrote:
Mitoe wrote:I've always found an aggressive Spanish FF to be especially difficult to deal with as Dutch. What specifically do you usually do in that matchup when you FF? What shipments, age up politicians, etc.? Where do you focus your pressure?
3vills > 700c >700w > 2falcs > Spanish gold(if the push didn't work)

While aging I build a barracks, a market and houses asap, maybe even a church for the xp bonus.
I age with the 9xbows, train some musks, upgrade them, train some skirms. By the time I have a mass of 9xbow, 15 musks, 5skirms, the falcs should be ready. I push, but every Dutch player does the same, send suicidal ruyters to kill my falcs, which they accomplish with their ruyter shipment, after that, they win by range advantage.
And Spain eco isn't that great, even with double racks I can't keep up with the skirm mass they produce.
Maybe all in pikemen+falc could destroy them banks asap.
Well big flaw in your BO is to skip the 3rd age2 shipment. You want to do 700g/700w/5vills or 8pik and not just 700g/700w or its like playing on a no tp map and you put yourself into trouble.
Then i wouldnt produce any musq in this MU. You need to keep your ressources to build complete batch of skirms asap early age3 without rax idle time and dogs from your explorer, to keep up with the ruy mass without problem.
I think 700g/700w/5vills then 2falc and once your falc have arrived, start to push with 10skirms 5dogs 4huss, keep making skirm and send the anti cav (9rods etc.) is strong.
Spanish gold is another option with atp on some map but i dont see any interest in this other than fun when FF just win in a shorter time.
Funny, i was looking if i have recorded games but forgot that DE blow me up all my rec.

( edit : or you go full piroshiki mode).
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France chronique
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Re: How to lame Dutch?

Post by chronique »

I had some records against dutch but i haven't see interest of saving them lol. Just ff, train skirm, send 2 falc, push, send rods/pik and you have a perfect compo (2 falc protected by skirm + rods/pik/dog). Siege bank => best xp donator (bank are realy low hp for the amount of xp that give to your opponent) and the most important things is, protect your falc (also falc are not the bad against ruyter).
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Re: How to lame Dutch?

Post by Mitoe »

Jets wrote:
Mitoe wrote:I've always found an aggressive Spanish FF to be especially difficult to deal with as Dutch. What specifically do you usually do in that matchup when you FF? What shipments, age up politicians, etc.? Where do you focus your pressure?
3vills > 700c >700w > 2falcs > Spanish gold(if the push didn't work)

While aging I build a barracks, a market and houses asap, maybe even a church for the xp bonus.
I age with the 9xbows, train some musks, upgrade them, train some skirms. By the time I have a mass of 9xbow, 15 musks, 5skirms, the falcs should be ready. I push, but every Dutch player does the same, send suicidal ruyters to kill my falcs, which they accomplish with their ruyter shipment, after that, they win by range advantage.
And Spain eco isn't that great, even with double racks I can't keep up with the skirm mass they produce.
Maybe all in pikemen+falc could destroy them banks asap.
I think you should definitely be sending 5v after 700w, or at the very least 8 pike. You also shouldn't age with xbows vs Dutch I think. They technically counter ruyters, but you don't need to counter ruyters, you need to scare them away from running up to your cannons, so pikes are better. You should never have to consider shipping Spanish Gold after 2 falcs when you're being aggressive. He shouldn't be able to kill your falcs so easily. Age with the pikes and I think you'll see an improvement there.

What I've always struggled with vs Spain is a large early mass of musk/pike with 2 falcs sieging my banks down. Dutch gets to Fortress much later than Spain unless they cut a good deal of eco, and even then I find it very difficult to pull together enough ruyters to deal with falconets if there are pikes on top of my ruyters whenever I walk up (and the falcs start walking in the opposite direction).
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Re: How to lame Dutch?

Post by Jets »

Actually, piki age up is pretty op. I just won 3 matches in a row against Dutch (collecting a bunch of treasures help too).

3vills >II 700c > 700w > 5vills > III 2falcs > 9rods > 5lancers > gg

Starting with a market and a house, 3 vills chopping wood while the others gather food, early hunting dogs and age up with 14 vills around 2.45 / 2.50. After that, Gang Saw and 4 vills chopping wood to make a TP while aging, after that I just gathered food and 100c (if not there is a coin treasure around). When aging to III, I build 2 barracks and 3 houses, with 3 vills chopping wood for later. I trained 15 skirms asap, with 8pike + 2 falcs + 5dogs I start pushing, I even train some musks/rods just in case. After that, lancers and skirms just to kill any light inf & light cav they send. That's it, that's a gg.
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France chronique
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Re: How to lame Dutch?

Post by chronique »

Your build is not opti.

1) age 15 vili arround 2.50 with market and 2.40 without
2) put like 13 vili on wood in transi for the tp as soon as you can, then all food (need 100g), why gang saw?
3) no need 2 barracks early age 3, 1 rax + market upg is better. No need 5 lancer vs full ruyter

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