How to beat French?

[Jets]

I'm currently focusing on my Spain strategies, although I can't beat French, no matter what I do.

I tried FF > SG > 1000W > Market upgrades, yet they simply just have a better eco.
I tried FF > 2falcs > 9 rods, as a rush it's pretty decent, but once there's minutemen and 5 dragoons on the field, my push lacks strength.

In any cases France finds its way out and beats me with skirms, goons & cuirassiers. I just can't keep up with his military shipments. Any help?

[Leafy]

any record game?

[Squamiger]

spanish gold + 1k wood with a market should beat french eco. he will have a much stronger early fortress though if he goes 5 goons 8 skirm 2 falc though, so you have to hold that with dogs, mm, and double rax skirms

[_DB_]

Really this is the MU I hated playing as Spain on RE
I felt even Spain Otto is a better MU.

Aggro FF will always fail against good French players. They all seem to have a counter strategy.

I've seen players force French to play in age 2
But that is shit too.

Then I guess as Squamiger said, spanish gold with 1k wood is the way to go

You might even need to make some rods or musks while aging to age 3 if the French player decides to aggressive musk semi FF (I have seen players do that at my level)

[Astaroth]

ATP stage viable on DE?

[[Armag] diarouga]

According to Hazza it's Spain favoured. I believe that it's an even MU, go for a Spanish gold ff skirm/rod/falc and you shouldn't get outmassed.

[chronique]

ATP stage viable on DE?

Yes it is, you should tp first

Spanish gold is needed in this mu, and i think spain won the mid age 3. To me skirm/rodo/lancer > skirm/goon/cuir. You need something like 25 skirm and a ton of rods (50+) and lancer only if the french over skirm (which happend a lot), because rods in mass are like zergling, when the french army are surrounded it's a massacre.

[Challenger_Marco]

ATP stage viable on DE?

In DE almost in every map with TP you can build tp first and chop 100w and get a house and then send atp and get other tps it's just strong and you combine this with spanish gold it's insane.

[Plantinator]

An attack thru belgium has proven to be pretty succesful.

[Astaroth]

ATP stage viable on DE?

Yes it is, you should tp first

Spanish gold is needed in this mu, and i think spain won the mid age 3. To me skirm/rodo/lancer > skirm/goon/cuir. You need something like 25 skirm and a ton of rods (50+) and lancer only if the french over skirm (which happend a lot), because rods in mass are like zergling, when the french army are surrounded it's a massacre.

ATP stage viable on DE?

In DE almost in every map with TP you can build tp first and chop 100w and get a house and then send atp and get other tps it's just strong and you combine this with spanish gold it's insane.

Yeah, thanks. Then IMO this sounds like a solid option. Pushing tower+ATP is hard for France and most France players don't want to play aggro vs Spain anyway. Attacking tower+ATP+dogs etc. with age2 musks seems risky/wasteful. And even if they take down an ATP, it delays their age up and costs like 2-3 musks (dogs etc.).

France's counter to this is probably a fast age3 push with straight FF (I think someone, maybe Kaiser, once did full goon and did well). But most French players don't like doing that and Spain can prolly hold.

[Kawapasaka]

You can still play aggressively as France against an ATP/tower by ignoring it and going for the base instead. Trickling musks under the two buildings is indeed damn dogshit.

[flontier]

imo spain has the edge of the versatibility in this mu.
Basically fre has to pick their strategy before spain and so they go either for some age2 play, semi ff, or naked ff etc..
From there spain can adapt and imo FF/FF aggro is good answer to any age2 play and semi ff, while FF into spanish gold/1k wood should beat the fre naked ff (4cdb/700w 1 or 2tp).

[chris1089]

imo spain has the edge of the versatibility in this mu.
Basically fre has to pick their strategy before spain and so they go either for some age2 play, semi ff, or naked ff etc..
From there spain can adapt and imo FF/FF aggro is good answer to any age2 play and semi ff, while FF into spanish gold/1k wood should beat the fre naked ff (4cdb/700w 1 or 2tp).

This is how it feels to me. (Probably only played the my 15 times though.)

[Black_Duck]

imo spain has the edge of the versatibility in this mu.
Basically fre has to pick their strategy before spain and so they go either for some age2 play, semi ff, or naked ff etc..
From there spain can adapt and imo FF/FF aggro is good answer to any age2 play and semi ff, while FF into spanish gold/1k wood should beat the fre naked ff (4cdb/700w 1 or 2tp).

This is how it feels to me. (Probably only played the my 15 times though.)

All against the same bloke : D

[draztik]

This matchup is quite boring on both sides because both players are going to "boom" and not fight during a long time.
French will rarely semi or rush and with spain, you are forced to do spanish gold for a decent economy and mass near your TC during a lot of time to take advantage of spanish gold.

But I think you should have a better eco than french with spanish gold, even if no atp.

The problem of ATP is that you have to up at 16 witch is in my opinion quite embarrassing and underestimated : I always feel that up at 15 make your adversary "scary" and up at 16 makes him "reassured". But if you go spanish gold and boom, up at 16 is maybe less dramatic. On another hand, you can lose your tp line because french is supposed to have a better army early age 3...

Other options are maybe to FI with spain after spanish gold ?

Surely french can also FI ...

correct me if I am wrong.

[Hazza54321]

Flontiers summary is on point

[draztik]

Also I don't play at high levels but I know that I struggle a lot against jan rush (or colonial big timing at around 7:00) : even MC + dog + towwer + TC + hero + 7 rodo is not enough to handle the mass correctly.

French are not supposed to have a decent musket rush ? if yes, it can be a good option from time to time maybe.

[chronique]

At high level it's prob not a good way ^^ and now with the 9 xbow age up is even worst.

[chris1089]

At high level it's prob not a good way ^^ and now with the 9 xbow age up is even worst.

5 dogs, 9 xbows and minutemen sounds like more than a handful for a musk rush.

[draztik]

depends if the musk rush is hard or not. With the jan rush you cannot wait to much and you have to use MC /dogs/7rodo before. reaching age III . Xbows are not helpfull if alone and adversary can use the 3 hussard card.

Need more test maybe and more micro. Maybe I should wall also but I think it is decent to rush spain. (heavy musket rush and/ or timing around 6.50)

[Garja]

on DE you dont even need CM card vs otto double jan because you can consistently age with 15v (18 to III) and have 9 xbows.

[Hawk_Girl]

is age 1 tp good when you do atp build?

[Garja]

it's almost always good but you age with 16v most of time

[Jets]

It's quite hard to age when your opponent right clicks my base with 15musks 8xbows. Minutemen, dogs, the outpost & tc fire aren't enough. The only games I have a chance is when france doesn't ship 8bows.
I'll check if the logistician can compete with french eco.

[Thrar]

Shouldn't you be nearly age 3 by then?

I don't have the timings memorized, but with the walking time for the crossbows all the way from their TC, shouldn't it be close to 8 minutes by the time they reach your base?
If you time your batches so you have 5 muskets, 6 rods, 5 dogs, MM, and the crossbows (or even pikes) from age up all engage at the same time I don't see how they can hold under your TC.