Portuguese builds

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Portuguese builds

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Post by andrewgs »

I'd like to summarize a few things I've learned over way too many games with ports. I wanted to work out optimal builds, which meant comparing livestock to gather rate cards, and 10/10 age ups to 12 or 13 vil age ups. I started playing other civs but realised I should probably write builds down before I forget them, and that 10/10s are pretty good so I went back to playing ports and wrote this... And there's still some crate spam builds I want to try, and I've completely ignored water here.

Age 1 Options
Portugal gain a town centre wagon on age up which makes idling your town centre to age up faster better than completing a villager and having food to spare when clicking age up, as you'll get back that extra vil from the new town center earlier. Portugal start with 7 villagers so you need to decide which build you're doing, and whether you need to chop for a house quickly or be housed. Before considering treasures, there's 7 conceivable starts:
  • 10v (save 200w)
  • 10v, trading post
  • 11v, house (save 100w)
  • 12v, house (save 100w)
  • 13v, trading post, house (chop 100w)
  • 13v, market+hunting dogs, house (chop 50w, mine 50c)
  • 14v?, trading post, market+hunting dogs, house  (chop 150w, mine 50c)
Use your first spyglass to scout the nearby area or area just beyond a trading post to determine what treasures are available early enough to speed up your build. These can allow you to age a villager earlier on the builds which need chopping or mining. I think the 13v trading post build is better than the 13v market+hunting dogs build as you'll have ~2mins of extra xp from the trading post. With a 85w+ treasure and building a house or the +5 pop space the 10v age up can become 11v to reduce town centre idle time.

The builds which save wood only really work with advanced trading post. Delaying a trading post or market and hunting dogs to save wood for advanced trading post allows you to place trading posts before your opponent.

The charts below show representative builds without treasures but with idle time based on timings from my games up to age 2. Steel traps is researched at the earliest opportunity when making units (ie after first crate shipment for 10/10 builds), then only food is gathered. Looking at only food makes it easier to compare builds with different gather rates. In the non-sheep builds I'd be gathering only food anyway. In the sheep builds I'd be gathering coin but this would be instead of gathering from hunts, which in terms of villager seconds is just as efficient as gathering food from hunts when herdables aren't available. For simplicity the sheep and cow gathering are with every villager gathering them simultaneously, so don't expect to gather food that fast. The naming convention I've used is civ_age up vils_stuff done in age 1__stuff done in transition__age 2 eco card.
build comparisons
The 10/10 builds leave you around 300f behind the 13v age ups at 7 mins and after. The earlier second town centre allows the 10/10 to catch up in vil count. It's only if treasures allow a 12v age up that those builds will be ahead in vil count. I think the better town centre placement and map control makes 10/10 builds the better choice in many cases.


Cards
Portugal doesn't have villager shipments so there's several possible first cards:
  • Furrier (increases hunts/berries 15% gather rate, 7.5% yield)
    This card isn't great but becomes decent as the game goes on as it affects more villlagers. It's the best option when you expect to have map control to gather hunts. Sending crates and selling food at the market allows you to almost only gather food for the early and mid game. Primarily gathering food is something you should aim for as it's the fastest gathering resource, and portugese have a 5% gather rate bonus. When you play this card you're committing to gathering from hunts, so should send spice trade early in age 2. I prefer this card to eco theory beause:
    - Running out of hunts is game deciding, and furrier prolongs hunts.
    - It's quite late in the game (9min?) when eco theory gives a larger benefit than furrier. Your macro needs to be at a 2:1 food:coin (or wood) ratio before eco theory is better (furrier giving 2v*0.15 = 0.3v, eco theory 3v*0.1 = 0.3v)
    - However it takes up an extra card slot as you'd usually have eco theory in your deck as a late game card.
  • Eco theory (increases all resources 10% gather rate)
    This card is the meta card when not using ATP or sheep, and beats furrier in the late game. Feel free to swap it for Furrier in the builds below.
  • Advanced trading post
    This card is good when you can build 3 trading posts or more, when staying in base or taking map control. When staying in base this makes your opponent have to build an army to destroy the trading posts, which buys you time. When taking map control and playing colonial this can be used to get stagecoach, or you can build an early native post to be able to immediately train units in age 2.
  • 7 Sheep + livestock pen
    This card is amazing on livestock maps, and good when you're penned in your base without have access to hunts. Livestock gathers at 2f/s (compared to a base gather rate of 0.84f/s for huntables), so you want task several villagers per livestock to minimise the decay. With 4 villagers gathering each sheep you'll gather 274f per sheep. 7*274f = 1918f. The sheep take 6 mins to fatten, so will be ready around 8 mins. After gathering the sheep you'll have gathered amount the same amount of food as with furrier*, but will have depleted less hunts (~1400f*) so can last longer in base. On livestock maps this card is even better as you can fatten the livestock from the map. Yaks take 233s/3m53 and goats take 263s/4m23s, both faster than the sheep, so tasking these to the pen before sheep will allow you to gather fully fattened livestock earlier. Since you have a livestock pen, you can later send 7 cows in age 2.
    * assumes only gathering food
  • Team Early Dragoons
    This card is a waste of a shipment. You can FF and send 5 and train a batch at a similiar time to the second batch of age 2 goons.
  • Save shipment till age 2
    This was common when playing colonial before DE, but the addition of the 7 sheep card as a strong age 1 card, fixed 200w start making an age 1 trading post the norm, and +100xp for building town centres, you'll have back to back second and third shipments and a 4th shipment soon after. These changes makes saving a shipment a poor choice on DE, although maybe there's an less economy focused build with crates that I've not explored.
  • Advanced buildings
    Having this card in deck is enough to make some Lakota players instant resign or suicidally rush you.
Notable Age 2 Cards
  • House of Braganca
    This card makes trade route upgrades free, and the train available in age 2. I view this card as 200f, 200w per trade route + 0.6vil per trade post (stagecoach is ~3v, train upgrade is +15%). The problem with this card is it forces you to take and hold the trade route, which may not be possible as you've skipped a crate/unit shipment to send this card. Sending it as the 3rd or 4th card in age 2 feels late for stagecoach, although since you've got trading posts on xp it's not too delayed. This card is OK on maps with 2 trade routes like Hokkaido, and having it in deck can mind game your opponent into taking or attacking trading posts early. This is a follow up to ATP on those maps.
  • Spice trade (increases hunts/berries 20% gather rate, 10% yield)
    See Furrier in age 1. This card is good without sending furrier in age 1, unless you're going livestock.
  • 7 Semi Fattened Cows
    These cows are very valueable and in some situations (FF/FI with ATP, livestock maps vs a containig civ) they can be worth sending without the 7 sheep + livestock pen card, and building a pen with 200w. They fatten in 4 mins. With 4 villagers gathering each cow you'll gather 457f per cow. 7*274f = 3199f. In most builds this should be sent at ~4.50, arrive at 5.30 and the first cows will fatten at 9.30, when you've likely depleted your in base hunts. Compared to a furrier + spice trade build, the 7 sheep + 7 cow build will have gathered ~400f less. This assumes only gathering food, which at this time isn't realistic for the furrier + spice trade build, and gathering coin in that build puts the advantage to the sheep + cow build. Maybe after 12 minutes, if the furrier+spice trade build has maintained map control and has hunts to gather, they'll be ahead as they've a higher gather rate.
Builds

Hunting upgrade aggressive builds
These builds centre around maximising your hunting gather rates and getting map control to allow you use this advantage - There's no point sending spice trade if you've placed town centres close together so you've only got 3 hunts to gather (3.3 when you consider the yield increase!). Before any market upgrades or shipments, it's more efficient to gather food and sell it to gather coin than to mine coin. (i.e. it takes less villager seconds to gather 100f and sell it for 75f than to gather 75c.) As you accumulate hunting upgrades it becomes even more efficient to sell food - It's efficient for a furrier, spice trade, hunting dogs and steel traps build to sell food till 46 coin in the mid game! Selling that much food is a bit excessive as although it's still a positive trade in terms of villager seconds, it's not as large as the early trades, and you'll deplete hunts very fast. Nevertheless you can delay getting placer mines till you're out of coin shipments.

The Portuguese economy is among the worst in early colonial due to the lack of villager shipments. Furrier requires 20 villagers gathering food before it's as good as a 3 villager shipment, and spice trade 25 before it's as good as 5 villagers - but after these gather number these cards become more valuable than the villager shipments. Therefore almost every other civ has a stronger early game economy and can outmass you early.

A forward town centre allows you to be aggressive while still having somewhere to retreat to and take a good fight with a shipment, town centre fire, minutemen, or later colonial militia. Place the town centre on a hunt/coin mine to starve your opponent and have villagers ready to garrison, and/or on a trading post to take stagecoach later. Build buildings behind your town centre so they don't get seiged as easily. Be cautious when facing a civilisation with a tower age up or that builds a blockhouse/warhut as a tower close to your town centre will attack villagers gathering nearby, and you'll likely be out massed so won't be able to seige it down. A barracks length distance between the tower and your town centre is ideal.

After your first or second batches it's important to work out what your opponent is up to. If you're opponent chooses to play colonial, you need to keep making units to survive his timing push, so need to send wood to build a second military production building and houses. Aging up and losing your town centre and forward base is something I've done too often. After their timing push you'll have a stronger economy and map to gather from so should be ahead. If your opponent is semi-FFing or FFing, to follow them up at a reasonable time you need to stop making units and send coin.

A 2 falconet timing is difficult to deal with and often leads to a lost tc. Placing a tc close to the enemy means there's little walking time on the falconets. You need to plan how you're going to deal with them. There's a few options:
  • Culverins require more investment than the 2 falc shipment as you have to build an artillery foundry, and are difficult to make early enough to save the tc - You need to be aged up at a similar time, building an artillery foundry immediately (before scouting falc shipment) and training a culv immediately - all before a 1k w or c shipment.
  • Goons ( trained or shipped) with tc fire and mm can be enough, but is usually an unfavourable trade.
  • mams or ronin are potential options, but come in later and it's more difficult to get a good trade than with goons as you can't snipe them.
  • colonial militia allows tc fire to bring a falconet down to low health before you take a fight. With mm, cm, hus or goons you can usually take out a falconet before your infantry mass is destroyed. This is often the least bad option.
It's typical to age with the fast age up if you've a shipment available, or the caravel 400w or 6 cas if not. However aging up with 6 cas and shipping 700w or 600w is an underused option - the 6 cas arrive at a similar time to fast aging and sending 8 cas, and you have wood to use earlier ( but are up later so unit upgrades or fortress buildings come later). This is a good option if you're unpressured and can wait for unit upgrades.

Aging with a mass of muskets and shipping organs seems like a decent timing push, but it's nullified by 2 falconet shipments so there's few civs to do it against. Goon, cas is the common composition, often with hus. Cas are food heavy units, so if food is sparse then add organs for anti inf. Halbs or muskets are options for siege, as organs don't seige well. Cas musket is a decent composition as the upgrade cards and advanced arsenal techs affect both, and works very well vs Sweden.

10/10 colonial/semi ff
Build a TP with starting crates.
(1) Furrier

Bow Pike:
In transition, chop for a market + hunting dogs and a house, then transfer all vils to food. With the 400w crates build a barracks and 5 units.
(2) 700w
Sell food to get the coin for steel traps and use the remaining wood for units/houses/trading.
(3) Spice trade
(4) 700c to age up, or
(4) 600w to make another military building and units

Muskets / Hussar:
In transition, chop for a market + hunting dogs and a house, then transfer all vils to food. With the 400w crates build a barracks and save the 200w. Alternatively delay market + hunting dogs till age up to get a batch of 4 hus instead of 3. Selling food results in fewer units as it's food that limits the first batch here.
(2) 700c
Use the saved 200w to get steel traps/market + hunting dogs, and chop 25w/50w for a house.
(3) Spice trade
(4) 600c to age up / make more hus, or
(4) 700w to make another military building and houses


Muskets / Hussar into stagecoach:
In transition, chop for a market + hunting dogs and a house, then transfer all vils to food. With the 400w crates build a barracks and build a trading post.
(2) 700c
(3) 700w
Build final trading posts and houses, research stagecoach.
(4) 600c to age up / make more hus, or
(4) 600w to make another military building and houses
(5) Spice trade


Aggressive colonial/semi ff
Choose a trading post or market+hunting dogs start based on your starting treasures.

(1) Furrier
Age up with 400w. In transition, chop for a market + hunting dogs or trading post depending on what you built earlier, then transfer all villagers to food. Have 25w ready to get steel traps, a military building and a house. Sell food to get steel traps ASAP. Build your military building behind your forward town centre so you can use town centre fire for protection. Most civs will have more eco than you at this point in the game so expect to be out massed once they build a second military building. Making units and calling colonial militia beats most pushes on your town centre.

Bow Pike:
(2) 700w
(3) Spice trade
Hold off building a house and use the wood for units. With a 12vil age up, you'll have pop space for 4 units before the 2nd town centre completes. Use the 700w to build a house, second rax and units.

Musk:
(2) Spice trade
(3) 700w
(4) 700c
Sell food to make muskets. 700w is needed before 700c to make houses and a second rax else you risk being outmassed.

Hussar:
(2) Spice trade
(3) 700c
Sell food to make hus.

Livestock aggressive builds
On maps with livestock (but not sheep, they're too slow to fatten), the above aggressive above builds can have furrier swapped for 7 sheep + livestock pen, and spice trade swapped for 7 cows. Task the livestock from the map onto the pen first, as they'll fully fatten earlier than the sheep and be ready soon after age up. You can eat livestock before it's fully fattened when you've more than 10. Alternatively shift them around (take a sheep off 1min before it's fat to allow a cow to fatten, then put the sheep back on 1 min later when others have fattened) so it doesn't all fatten at the same time since you won't gather all the fat animals immediately to prevent decay. You can place your livestock pen adjacent to your town centre and fatten the livestock on the town centre side of the pen so the fat livestock walks next to the town centre like in the image:
baa
For other players, do you think there's anything else to add to this as general advice? Do you disagree with any of the points I've raised?
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Re: Portuguese builds

Post by Patrick20872 »

"For other China players" ?
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Re: Portuguese builds

Post by titanium_cn »

I like this good article by andrewgs

(1)13v, trading post, house (chop 100w), It's hard to do without early treasure. you usually need 14v to age up after 4:40
(2)i like Eco theory more than Furrier ,because it's effective for chopping or mining,In transition, you need chop for a market + hunting dogs,and you need get some mine before age up to Fortress(300 c for upgrade. You rely on selling food?)
(3)Eco theory + Spice trade ,usually used for age3 fighting,and go livestock pen,usually used for FI,because when you go livestock pen ,during 8:30 - 12:00 or more,the food is too much,and you often don't get a chance to ship 1000w to get more houses and 3rd military building
(4)In the end, which way do you recommend to deal with the SFF 2 falconet timing?
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Re: Portuguese builds

Post by chris1089 »

Idk about all this selling food seems fine for musks early on, but to get a batch of Huss out you have to sell a lot. You make the rate worse and deplete your hunts a lot - something that is already a problem for Portugal.
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Re: Portuguese builds

Post by andrewgs »

titanium_cn wrote:I like this good article by andrewgs

(1)13v, trading post, house (chop 100w), It's hard to do without early treasure. you usually need 14v to age up after 4:40
(2)i like Eco theory more than Furrier ,because it's effective for chopping or mining,In transition, you need chop for a market + hunting dogs,and you need get some mine before age up to Fortress(300 c for upgrade. You rely on selling food?)
(3)Eco theory + Spice trade ,usually used for age3 fighting,and go livestock pen,usually used for FI,because when you go livestock pen ,during 8:30 - 12:00 or more,the food is too much,and you often don't get a chance to ship 1000w to get more houses and 3rd military building
(4)In the end, which way do you recommend to deal with the SFF 2 falconet timing?
1. I think I timed this and had a small amount of idle time with 13v and good herding.
2. Yes, selling food is good when you have many food upgrades but few gold upgrades. See viewtopic.php?f=983&t=22187
4. Usually CM tc fire one falc then fight


chris1089 wrote:Idk about all this selling food seems fine for musks early on, but to get a batch of Huss out you have to sell a lot. You make the rate worse and deplete your hunts a lot - something that is already a problem for Portugal.
It's still better to sell than to mine the coin. Furrier+spice market trades, early ones especially, are better than mining so you'll get more hus than by mining. (Although if you end up at like 76coin for your first batch you may want to mine 4c to get an extra hus) I'm only advocating spice trade when you're being aggressive and taking map, so you're gathering mid map or your opponent's hunts. Depleting hunts should be an issue for your opponent before you, and this way you have more stuff to deny them hunts.
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Re: Portuguese builds

Post by Kaiserklein »

I like the graphs. They show that you eventually don't have less vils when going 10/10. You gathered less resources (on average about 1000 less food, apparently, though you could get steel traps before the first colonial shipment) because you had less vils for a while, but on the other hand you were able to grab a TP in age 1 (if you go 13 + TP you'll idle and just end up having less vils overall) so you have more shipments, AND you're up way earlier so you can get stuff like stagecoach earlier, or apply pressure, or just a more forward TC, etc.

If I had to pick, I'd go eco theory over furrier though. But imo both are crap when going 10/10, you can just save the shipment instead, you'll need the crates to get shit done in early colo when you have so few vils and 2 TCs to produce from.

ATP is still superior on some maps and in some match ups, but so many civs will just get a TP in age 1 which sucks for you. 12v age up is a thing btw (synergizes well with ATP too), if you get like a 40f treasure, or 1 sheep, it's probably worth already.

Spice trade is probably strong in some MUs, but definitely not in many others, it's getting pretty overrated atm. The pen card is pretty good on livestock maps, don't think it's worth sending otherwise.
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Re: Portuguese builds

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Post by Aizamk »

basically from TP vc to 10/10 port to 12/10 france, the meta eventually catches up to my builds and we will see envoy rush being the next big thing
oranges.
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Re: Portuguese builds

Post by Kaiserklein »

Possibly having only TP maps, only food + wood crates starts, and maps with good treasures / livestock helped a bit :p
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Re: Portuguese builds

Post by gamevideo113 »

I just want to add a small note to this:
The Portuguese economy is among the worst in early colonial due to the lack of villager shipments. Furrier requires 20 villagers gathering food before it's as good as a 3 villager shipment, and spice trade 25 before it's as good as 5 villagers - but after these gather number these cards become more valuable than the villager shipments. Therefore almost every other civ has a stronger early game economy and can outmass you early.
After market upgrades this isn't true anymore. Spice trade adds a flat 0.168 gathering rate to every villager. So at 25 vills you'll have 4.2/s extra food coming in, but that doesn't equate anymore to 5 vills because with market upgrades your vills aren't gathering at 0.84 anymore, rather 1.092/s with both hunting dogs and steel traps, which means spice trade is more like a 4-ish villager shipment at that point from a purely mathematical perspective. I agree with Kaiser that spice trade is being overrated, even though it synergizes well with ports and seems to work better in practice than it should on paper. I wouldn't send it on maps that don't have berries because in the short run you're basically wasting an entire colonial shipment on a 250 resources market upgrade.
In my opinion Hunting Dogs + Steel Traps >>> Spice Trade. The extra yeld is nice but it's hard to evaluate how much it can actually help.
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Re: Portuguese builds

Post by andrewgs »

Kaiserklein wrote:I like the graphs. They show that you eventually don't have less vils when going 10/10. You gathered less resources (on average about 1000 less food, apparently, though you could get steel traps before the first colonial shipment) because you had less vils for a while, but on the other hand you were able to grab a TP in age 1 (if you go 13 + TP you'll idle and just end up having less vils overall) so you have more shipments, AND you're up way earlier so you can get stuff like stagecoach earlier, or apply pressure, or just a more forward TC, etc.
No, it's like 300f difference. To compare like with like, compare brown(below purple) with orange. Both are age 1 TP, transition market and HD, sending spice trade. With the 10/10 you've 3 fewer vils gathering for 90s age up before you catch up to the 13/20s, so 300f sounds about right. You can get steel traps earlier but then you have a bad batch, so early pressure isn't scary. Unless your hunt runs off, you should always manage a 10v, 12v or 13v age up using early scouted treasures:
if >=40w treasure: build tp, go 12v or 13v
if >=30c treasure: build market, go 12v or 13v
else: build TP, go 10/10

Kaiserklein wrote: If I had to pick, I'd go eco theory over furrier though. But imo both are crap when going 10/10, you can just save the shipment instead, you'll need the crates to get shit done in early colo when you have so few vils and 2 TCs to produce from.
You have a TP and 100xp from the TC, so that extra crate is really late, while furrier has given extra res. You age up at ~4min, get 2 shipments back to back, so 5.20, your 3rd shipment comes soon after (so saving a shipment barely expedites it), taking us to ~6.20. So that saved shipment isn't doing much until like 7 mins. Compare the blue and green in the graphs for the difference between saving a shipment (sheep being the same gather rates before they fatten) to furrier and it's like 500f at 7.30. I'm thinking its better to send furrier and skip spice trade to send crates.
Kaiserklein wrote: ATP is still superior on some maps and in some match ups, but so many civs will just get a TP in age 1 which sucks for you. 12v age up is a thing btw (synergizes well with ATP too), if you get like a 40f treasure, or 1 sheep, it's probably worth already.

Spice trade is probably strong in some MUs, but definitely not in many others, it's getting pretty overrated atm. The pen card is pretty good on livestock maps, don't think it's worth sending otherwise.
yea, on 3TP maps vs TP civs ATP seems bad. There's a load more variation with ATP so I've just been winging it:
- is 10/10 and building a TP a thing? I've assumed it's better to just hold off and go ATP.
- 10v/11v?/12v/13v+market
- number of TPs on the map
- denying enemy TPs
- nats

This is all MU and map dependent. Going livestock seems good vs containing civs like russia, early aging iro.
Aizamk wrote:basically from TP vc to 10/10 port to 12/10 france, the meta eventually catches up to my builds and we will see envoy rush being the next big thing
I went back to Goodspeed's guide, he advocates spice trade.
gamevideo113 wrote: After market upgrades this isn't true anymore. Spice trade adds a flat 0.168 gathering rate to every villager. So at 25 vills you'll have 4.2/s extra food coming in, but that doesn't equate anymore to 5 vills because with market upgrades your vills aren't gathering at 0.84 anymore, rather 1.092/s with both hunting dogs and steel traps, which means spice trade is more like a 4-ish villager shipment at that point from a purely mathematical perspective. I agree with Kaiser that spice trade is being overrated, even though it synergizes well with ports and seems to work better in practice than it should on paper. I wouldn't send it on maps that don't have berries because in the short run you're basically wasting an entire colonial shipment on a 250 resources market upgrade.
In my opinion Hunting Dogs + Steel Traps >>> Spice Trade. The extra yeld is nice but it's hard to evaluate how much it can actually help.
Ya this is a good point you've picked up on. Perhaps after market techs that you'd get anyway is a better baseline for comparison than base rates. It gets confusing when comparing builds with different gather rates as resources are worth different villager seconds (there are some no market FIs). Although the numbers change, the conclusion that spice trade is the economic shipment option is still the same.

I wouldn't consider it a 250 res market upgrade, as the market upgrade is worth more than 250 res (you get it every game) and arguably more than 350 res to consider the market cost.

I've noticed the yield bonus when playing vs brit with both massing musk, where I've greatly out gathered in food count - partly due to forward tc map control, partly due to yield bonus (I think you need both furrier + spice trade before you even notice a difference)
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Re: Portuguese builds

Post by Kaiserklein »

andrewgs wrote:No, it's like 300f difference. To compare like with like, compare brown(below purple) with orange. Both are age 1 TP, transition market and HD, sending spice trade. With the 10/10 you've 3 fewer vils gathering for 90s age up before you catch up to the 13/20s, so 300f sounds about right. You can get steel traps earlier but then you have a bad batch, so early pressure isn't scary. Unless your hunt runs off, you should always manage a 10v, 12v or 13v age up using early scouted treasures:
if >=40w treasure: build tp, go 12v or 13v
if >=30c treasure: build market, go 12v or 13v
else: build TP, go 10/10
Except you don't TP on 13 because it's crap, you just go 12 or you get a market and 13. Either way you'll get more food than what the graphs show (I also wonder what age up time you used for 10/10 btw). Plus you had to chop 100w for a house in transition, while with other age ups you already have it so you can gather more food instead. Plus after a 10/10 you may not be able to ship spice trade asap because you need crates to fuel your weaker eco. etc
But yeah it's probably not quite a 1000f gap you're right, I just doubt it's only 300 in an actual game setting.
Ah and you can get steel traps earlier with a decent batch if you just send crates, which is what you should do after a 10/10.

Anyway the openings are more like:
- if you get food you kinda 10/10 no matter what
- If you get wood you can TP 13, won't be able to go 12 without food
- If it's an ATP map in a good ATP MU, you usually save the wood for ATP, if possible with 12 age up
- If you get coin you go for market 13v
- If you get nothing you go for the sad 13v 1 house age up. Almost never happens
andrewgs wrote:You have a TP and 100xp from the TC, so that extra crate is really late, while furrier has given extra res. You age up at ~4min, get 2 shipments back to back, so 5.20, your 3rd shipment comes soon after (so saving a shipment barely expedites it), taking us to ~6.20. So that saved shipment isn't doing much until like 7 mins. Compare the blue and green in the graphs for the difference between saving a shipment (sheep being the same gather rates before they fatten) to furrier and it's like 500f at 7.30. I'm thinking its better to send furrier and skip spice trade to send crates.
No, you age up way earlier than 4 min, because if you do then your 10/10 sucks and it just wasn't worth going for it. You don't have that many shipments because of that early age up. And you don't get the 100 xp instantly, you usually have to send the wagon forward (since you went 10/10) then wait for it to build up.
By saving the shipment you just get like 4 shipments back to back, while if you don't, you barely get 2 shipments back to back, then a delayed 3rd and very delayed 4th shipment. Besides furrier on 10 vils is just absolute shite, and it will take a long time before it becomes decent, by which time you could have achieved stuff like getting stagecoach or pressuring your opponent, if only you sent crates instead.
andrewgs wrote:yea, on 3TP maps vs TP civs ATP seems bad. There's a load more variation with ATP so I've just been winging it:
- is 10/10 and building a TP a thing? I've assumed it's better to just hold off and go ATP.
- 10v/11v?/12v/13v+market
- number of TPs on the map
- denying enemy TPs
- nats

This is all MU and map dependent. Going livestock seems good vs containing civs like russia, early aging iro.
- 10/10 TP into ATP is shit yeah. You could possibly 10/10 without a TP then go ATP, but you really need food treasures to make that somewhat viable.
- 12v usually, possibly 13v market, depending on treasures
- you need to know you'll be able to grab at least 3 TPs for sure, so it depends if they'll be able to take some, and how many are on the map yeah.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Great Britain andrewgs
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Re: Portuguese builds

Post by andrewgs »

Kaiserklein wrote: Except you don't TP on 13 because it's crap, you just go 12 or you get a market and 13. Either way you'll get more food than what the graphs show (I also wonder what age up time you used for 10/10 btw). Plus you had to chop 100w for a house in transition, while with other age ups you already have it so you can gather more food instead. Plus after a 10/10 you may not be able to ship spice trade asap because you need crates to fuel your weaker eco. etc
But yeah it's probably not quite a 1000f gap you're right, I just doubt it's only 300 in an actual game setting.
Ah and you can get steel traps earlier with a decent batch if you just send crates, which is what you should do after a 10/10.
2.10 for 10/10, 2.45 for 13/20s. All the timings are in the attached spreadsheets. I have used an early pass in the tp build, getting furrier in at 1.45, and an early hd in at 1.00. The age up timings are so similar I just used the same for both to simplify setting this up. (Furrier is 15% on average of 12v for 1min, hd is 10% on average of 11v for 1.45). I may be a tad optimistic with the shipment timing (tested on Colorado), but I've not included treasures so the age up timings are quite doable.


for the res gap between 10/10 and 13v, now that I know you'll end up with a similar number of vils, I'm thinking
the extra 3 vils for the 13v age up are delayed by ( [10/10 idle time = 25s] - [13/20 idle time = 10s] + [age up = 90s] ) = 105s
105s * 3v * 0.966f/vs is roughly 300f
Kaiserklein wrote: No, you age up way earlier than 4 min, because if you do then your 10/10 sucks and it just wasn't worth going for it. You don't have that many shipments because of that early age up. And you don't get the 100 xp instantly, you usually have to send the wagon forward (since you went 10/10) then wait for it to build up.
By saving the shipment you just get like 4 shipments back to back, while if you don't, you barely get 2 shipments back to back, then a delayed 3rd and very delayed 4th shipment. Besides furrier on 10 vils is just absolute shite, and it will take a long time before it becomes decent, by which time you could have achieved stuff like getting stagecoach or pressuring your opponent, if only you sent crates instead.
ah my bad was 20s late on my timings. I need to try the crate spams... Might note down shipment timings with/without furrier to compare them.
Kaiserklein wrote: You could possibly 10/10 without a TP then go ATP, but you really need food treasures to make that somewhat viable.
I think that can work regardless if it stops another ger or ATP civ getting any TPs
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No Flag GettinBetter2
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Re: Portuguese builds

Post by GettinBetter2 »

can someone write how to play against specific mu? Like spain,china,Japan or in a mirror?
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Germany AndiAOE
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Re: Portuguese builds

Post by AndiAOE »

great writeup and still relevant today. I think this should be on strategy wall @musketeer925 (or whoever is in charge of this)

Also @andrewgs i usually go up with 2 cows + 2 vills (politicians) if i choose the livestock pen. What are your thoughts about it
Seems a bit greedy, but often i still get out the 4-5 huss with my stable (also a bit earlier, since i chop in transition), and with the 700 wood i also get market upgrade relatively early
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Re: Portuguese builds

Post by andrewgs »

yea that's good

2 vils is about the same as having market techs with 13v, but better in the long run.

400w is 800vs, 2 semifattenned cows gathered instantly is 400f so like 200vs, a difference of 600vs. With +2vil you'll be better off after 300s=5mins.
Fattening then gathering is 1kf so like 500vs. They take 4mins to fatten, so 240s*2v=480vs from villagers, so you'd be up 980-800=180vs 4mins later.
(ignoring extra res gathered from earlier market techs)

Probably better to 10/10 if you do that to have vils + fattened cows sooner, but then you don't have so many livestock since you're getting a TP...
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Re: Portuguese builds

Post by Le Hussard sur le toit »

Going for the 2 vills+2 cows politician makes a lot of sense when you shipped the lifestock pen. In this case I would argue it's better than 400w.

Also has anyone considered going for 300w/2vills+2cows ? It's about the same value as other civs usual 3vills/400w (especially as ports need one house less than other civs).
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Re: Portuguese builds

Post by musketeer925 »

AndiAOE wrote:
18 Feb 2022, 09:25
great writeup and still relevant today. I think this should be on strategy wall @musketeer925 (or whoever is in charge of this)

Also @andrewgs i usually go up with 2 cows + 2 vills (politicians) if i choose the livestock pen. What are your thoughts about it
Seems a bit greedy, but often i still get out the 4-5 huss with my stable (also a bit earlier, since i chop in transition), and with the 700 wood i also get market upgrade relatively early
There's a submit button and anyone can submit a thread to it, although it must be approved by an ESOC staff member.

I went ahead and submitted this one, but in the future feel free to submit posts yourself. Currently I don't think anyone gets notified of a submission needing approval though, so you may need to tag me anyway to get me to do that.

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