The new and improved bimonthly Match-up of the month

[PancakePrincess]

Hey everyone!
I am very, very happy to present the return of the one, the only, Match-up of the month!
After a (about) two year hiatus, it's finally back! I
Anyhow, since I'm a giant control freak who likes to lord over things I do think that a bit of organisation never hurts, I made a loose schedule of how it's going to work in the future:

Expert write-up - Community discussion - Showmatch (expert and general)- Recap

However, what exactly does that mean? Let me explain:
Firstly, the expert write-up is a write up on the MU by, well, experts (duh!). You may ask yourself who those experts are, so let me introduce you to my tremendous team of incredibly kind and helpful experts who agreed to help me with that little project. Let's hear it for...
@Mitoe
@[Armag] diarouga
@Kaiserklein
@Hazza54321
@Lukas_L99
@Guigs
@KINGofOsmane
@deleted_user5
@miggo1999_
!

Second, since I do not think that I have to explain what a discussion is, let's go right to the general show-match. In contrary to the expert show-match in which two of the experts listed above play (surprise, surprise!) , this show-match is meant for intermediate and beginner players. Which means that anyone can reach out to me and if we can put something together, we will! This perfectly leads me to my next point,self promotion of my channels woohoo! as for the foreseeable future, all show-matches will be streamed on my twitch, which can be found under:
https://www.twitch.tv/pancakeprincessze
I will also upload all things streamed there to my Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCw6niW ... Q/featured
If the format does generate some interest though, I hope that I can bring it to the ESOC channel one day. Here's hoping!

Finally, The recap will be an attempt to summarise the write-ups, the best points of discussions and the findings of the show-matches into one compact form. Maybe it'll be a video, maybe it'll be a gigantic write-up, I don't know yet.

I think that's all! I hope that the format will help people understand certain match-ups, generates fun discussions and is enjoyable for everyone! As with everything I do, feedback is highly appreciated and I am happy to answer any questions!

Finished Iterations
- Match up of the months – February/March 2021: Britain vs. France --> viewtopic.php?p=531048#p531047

[PancakePrincess]

Match up of the months – February/March 2021
Britain vs. France
Experts: Lecastete, Miggo and Mitoe (big thanks to you!)


Hey everyone!

Here we are, the first (of hopefully many) iteration(s) of the match-up of the month is about to begin. First of all, I hope you all had a fantastic start into the new year! Furthermore, I want to remind everyone that feedback is more than welcome, since there's probably a lot to improve. Anyhow, enough of the chit-chat, let us get into the thoughts of the players regarding the match-up.

France vs. Britain (Update 14825)

About the general flow of the match-up

Questions asked: What do you think about the general flow of the Match-up? Who is aggressive and who is defensive in what phase of the game?

Lecastete's thoughts
I think overall it's an even match up. It used to be a bit more British favoured on ESOC Patch, but on DE with the current French buffs, I would say this is even. France dictates the pace of the game, as they have the initiative early on due to a faster age up (12/10, 13 Coureur des Bois age up).

Miggo's thoughts
While the British have a wide variety of builds (such as an aggressive commerce age or a greedy Virginia company semi fast fortress) at their disposal, they definitely are the more passive party in the match-up. This is due to their booming potential. They like to just sit in their base until they need to push out for more resources. Therefore, France tends to set the pace of the match-up, and the British tend to react to that. With the guaranteed 200 wood start for France, it has also become more common to age with 12 Coureur des Boiss, which can definitely be helpful when going for an aggressive build order.

Mitoes thoughts
France usually dictates the pace of this matchup. British have a stronger economy but take longer to get going, which gives France opportunities to choose how the game will play out.

Generally, French is stronger in the early game and starts to fall behind when British completes their boom, before catching up again in the later stages of the game when their passive economic growth (as a result of Coureur des Boiss training slightly faster than vills for how much better they are) catches up and they start stacking upgrades on their super-unit, the Cuirassier.


Early Game (Discovery Age, Early commerce)

Questions asked: What are some good card orders? (One build for each civ suffices) What are the associated BOs?
What are the early game goals for the civs? (e.g. what age up timing should one aim for? what treasures are a good find? Etc.)

The French perspective

Lecastete's thoughts
The main goal of the French player is to get to age 2 as soon as possible without idling their town centre. Starting with a trading post and getting food treasures seems to be the meta. On a livestock map, I recommand sending the native scout to get as much livestock as possible while your explorer is building your trading post.
For France, the 12/10 is a fantastic build, since it allows them to gain map control, drop a military building and either put pressure on the British player or to control the trading post line. The 13 Coureur des Bois age up is also good if the 12/10 is impossible. One of the build orders I like a lot as the French vs the British is 12/10 or 13 Coureur des Bois age up into forward barracks. From there, if the British player is defensive with tower and barracks in his base, I would go for 700 wood first and take the trading post line. However, if the British player is aggressive with their forward tower and forward barracks, I wouldn't stagecoach but go for a lot of crossbows and try to win the forward base war. For French, 700 wood 4Coureur des Bois is the main line for this build order, then one has to adapt: either one ships 700 coin either to age up to the fortress age or to mass musketeers or one ships 8 crossbows to push.
To recap:
Ship 3 Coureur des Bois
12/10 or 13 13 Coureur des Bois age up
Forward barracks
Ship 700 wood and trade post if the British player is defensive OR 700 wood and a lot of crossbows if the British player is aggressive
Ship 4 Coureur des Bois
Ship 700 coin to age up OR to mass musketeers (follow musketeers up with 8 crossbows)

Miggo's thoughts
France definitely has the edge in age 1, as they get the free native scout which usually translates into more treasures scouted, which means they can gather (or steal) more treasures. Also important to note is that if the British start with a trading post (on land maps), they are likely to ship Virginia company after shipping 3 villagers.
In early age 2, both civs want to scout what military buildings are being dropped (if any are dropped at all), and which age up politician was chosen. However, in contrary to the British, the French player has a harder time gathering intel from the British during the transition, as they tend to always have a lot of villagers on wood during the transition (unless they go for an early unusual hussar start).

Mitoe's thoghts
The French generally want to be aggressive in the early game to stall the British boom a bit before advancing to the fortress age. A trading post is critical for Fortress gameplay because the shipments become so much more valuable, so typically France will want to use their starting 200w crates to construct a trading post and chop an additional 100w for the house before gathering to age, ideally with 13 or 14 Coureur des Bois.

A pretty flexible build order would be something like this:
3 Coureur des Bois > 4 Coureur des Bois > 700w (2nd military building + houses) > 700c (age up)

This is a pretty solid build order because the French player can use this card order while making hussars, musketeers, or crossbow/pikeman--it is applicable to all unit compositions in the second age.

Depending on what the British player does, the French player may choose to delay their age up by 1 card and ship 8 Crossbows or 3 Hussars before 700 coin, or use the 700 coin to train more units before following up with 600 coin to age afterwards.

The French player may also switch 700 wood and 4 Coureur de Bois around if they want to have more military out a bit earlier at the cost of a couple hundred resources lost overall. Sometimes this can be useful if it means doing more damage to the British player.

The British perspective

Lecastete's thoughts
The British have several options, they could start with a trading post, a market, or 2 manor houses. Usually, as the British, you're looking for coin treasures if you start with a market, or wood treasures if you opt for one of the other starts mentioned. Food is also good, but less impactful as the British will age up with 16 or 17 villagers no matter what.

Miggos thoughts
In early age 2, both civs want to scout what military buildings are being dropped (if any are dropped at all), and which age up politician was chosen. As the British, one can even look what resources the Coureur des Boiss of the French opponent are gathering while ageing up to anticipate whether they will start with hussars (many Coureur des Boiss on coin), musketeers (a few Coureur des Boiss on coin), or with a bow pike rush (many Coureur des Boiss on wood, after the trading post is already built).

My most recommended bo for the British in this match-up is:
3 villagers → age with tower, 700 wood, 5 villagers, 700 coin → age with 7 longbowmen, 2 falconets

This BO goes as follows:
One manor house and a market from the wood of the starting crates
Gather for the hunting dogs upgrade asap
Age with 16 villagers
Research gang saw during the age-up before sending all villagers onto wood
Build around 4 manor houses during the age-up and save enough wood for a barracks and steel traps before reaching the second age
Research steel traps, build a barracks and send 700 wood upon reaching the second age
Build 2-3 batches of musketeers
Build manor houses and research placer mines from the 700 wood shipment
After the 700 wood shipment send 700 coin and age up once it arrives and has been gathered
Transition a lot of your villagers onto wood during the age-up to build a second military building, get Veteran upgrades and build some more manner houses if you need the pop space
Furthermore, build some musketeers and longbowmen during the age-up
Send two falconets upon reaching age 3 (either because France is pushing your base with their own falconets, or because you have a lot of musk, which synergize well with the musketeers)
From there on, one is most likely in a position where one has to push out for resources soon. Hence, one will likely want to keep spamming unit shipments, in order to match France's mass.

In my experience this British bo is
good against: any sort of colonial play from France, as well as the classic aggro fast fortress
weak against: French double timing fast industrial

Mitoes thoughts
The British player wants to keep their villagers alive and resources safe while growing their economy into a large advantage in the mid-game. Generally the British game plan revolves around how many safe resources there are.

Overbooming on a map with low resources can result in the British army being too weak to fight when it is time to secure new hunts or gold mines elsewhere on the map. Underbooming on a map with too many resources can leave the British weaker in the mid-game, where their economic advantage is largest.

There are two opening approaches which depend mostly on how many safe resources there are in the base:

Low Resources:
2 Manors or 1 Manor + 1 Market (with Hunting Dogs researched)
- 2 Manors is generally best unless there is a coin treasure in base, in which case starting market makes your whole build order a bit smoother.

3v > 700w (more manors and market upgrades! Add 2nd military building if under pressure, otherwise more manors) > 5v > 600w (more manors, 2nd or 3rd military building)

If needed, 5v can also be cut and replaced by 600w, and then crates or military units can be sent next in order to have a stronger army in a shorter period of time.

High Resources:
1 Manor + 1 trading post
- Chop 35w for the manor

The early trading post allows the British to send a very greedy card: Virginia Company. This card makes the British boom much faster, often at the expense of age up time and military production. This should be done when there are lots of hunts and mines in base, so that there is a lot of time to make use of the extra villagers. The build looks very similar to the other one, just with VC thrown in the middle:

3v > Virginia Company > 700w > 600w > 5v

600w is usually sent before 5 villagers with this build, because the cheaper cost of manors means that there are more villagers than previously.


At any point in either of these builds, 6 musketeers or 6 longbows may be sent in place of any card if it is needed to hold a large push.

Generally, once the British build is complete with these builds, 700c is sent as a the follow up card, either to train more units or to advance to the fortress age.


Mid Game (Late commerce, transitioning to fortress, early fortress)

Questions asked: What are the mid game goals for the civs? (e.g. army composition, fortress timing, etc.)

The French perspective

Lecastete's thoughts
The French composition usually consists of skirmishers, dragoons, cuirassiers and potentially some veteran musketeers if there are a lot of age 2 leftovers units.
As France, you have access to the fast age up politician, which is a massive advantage over the British and you should use it. It opens up early age three timings with two falconets before the British player can ship their falconets or an opportunity to advance to the fourth age with the 1k coin politician.


Mitoe's thoughts
France wants to stay ahead in military tech and use their early tempo to control the resources on the map. While the British have a very strong economy, their military has a couple of weaknesses: longbows are great when they are able to fight at long range, but because of their long firing animation they struggle to kite enemy units. On top of this, they have a smaller multiplier vs heavy infantry (like musketeers) than their European skirmisher counterparts; only 1.25x compared to 2x. This means that France can leverage a musketeer-heavy army in the early stages of the Commerce and fortress ages.

Additionally, while the British have good dragoons, they have no dragoon shipments. Dragoons are typically not very useful at stopping cavalry until they've reached a "critical mass" of about 20-25 dragoons, and because it takes so much longer for the British to reach this number without the shipment, they typically avoid making them in early Fortress, and stick mostly to musketeers to help defend their cannons and longbows, with some hussars to provide a beefy frontline. Unlike the French, who have automatic access to Veteran units like the Skirmisher, Dragoon, and Cuirassier when they hit Fortress, the British also have to spend time and resources upgrading each of these units.

All of this means that France has a large military advantage in early Fortress, and because they usually get to Fortress earlier than the British as well, they can be really aggressive. Typically a good unit composition for France will consist primarily of musketeers and cuirassier with the 2 falconet shipment behind it and 8-13 supporting skirmishers to snipe enemy musketeers.

The thing to absolutely avoid as France is late-Commerce Age, where British has access to strong musketeer upgrades to give them an edge.

The British perspective


Lecastete's thoughts
The aim of the British mid game is to get ahead economically and outmass the French player without dying to an age 2 push or, which is much more likely, early age 3 timing push from the French player. the British army in the mid game is usually composed of a mix of longbowmen, musketeers, pikemen, hussars and ideally some dragoons to counter the French cuirassiers. Longbowmen perform better than French skirmishers in ranged infantry wars so you should try not to make too many of them, since that would make you vulnerable to a big cuirassier mass.

Mitoe's thoguhts
While the British do have some compositional weaknesses, they do have some strengths as well. Longbows are great at defending behind buildings where it is hard for the enemy to push into them; and while they aren't as good vs musketeers as skirmishers, they do very well against other skirmishers and especially against dragoon-type units. Additionally, the British have great upgrades for their musketeers, a +4 range upgrade for their longbows, and good cavalry upgrades across the board. This means that the longer game goes and the more they get to stack these upgrades, the further ahead they get.

Of course, these advantages are not as easy to leverage early on. So instead the British will usually defend with some musketeers and a few longbows, and match the age of their French opponent. If France stays age 2, British outscale pretty hard in late-Commerce with a superior economy and superior military upgrades. If France goes age 3 then British wants to defend until they can get their own 2 falconets and try to force a winning trade in the 50/50 falconet war.

Of course, the good late-age 2 upgrades and superior economy also means that the British can sometimes try to brute force a Commerce Age army vs a fortress age army, using their superior economy to compensate for the fact that their trades will be less efficient.

Typically the British player wants a lot of musketeer/hussar with a few supporting longbows if France goes for a musketeer based composition, and adding some additional cannons at some point since they synergize so well with their upgraded musketeers and they have the economy to support it; and longbow/hussar/dragoon if France goes for a heavier skirmisher/dragoon composition.


Late Game (Late fortress and beyond)

Questions asked: What are the late game goals for the civs? (e.g. army composition, age up? etc.)

The French perspective

Lecastete's thoughts
The French composition should be cuirassiers/gendarmes, skirmishers/voltigeurs and some dragoons.

Mitoe's thoughts
Late game France wants to go mostly cuirassier and skirmishers, as these are their strongest units. France can also choose to add heavy cannons from their factories if they want (this forces British to make culverins).

The British perspective

Lecastete's thoughts
As the British, I would go for a hussar and dragoon composition with a few longbows and potentially artillery.

Mitoe's thoughts
British, on the other hand, wants a mix of musketeers and hussars to deal with the cuirassiers, and cannons behind it to give them strong pushing power and a way to deal with skirmishers. Unlike France, the British probably don't want to add Rockets from their factories as they are just not as strong as heavy cannons, and will instead want to train falconets, horse artillery, and culverins if the opponent also makes artillery.

This concludes the expert player write-up! I hope you all had a fun and educational reading experience. However, this month's iteration of the match-up of the month is far from over!
Mitoe and Miggo will engage in an epic show-match at some point this February (I will announce the details when they are available of course) and the general show-match is also something I'd really like to do. As said in the opening post, anyone is welcome to participate, just let me know and I'm sure something can be worked out! Oh, and as announced there will be recap at the end of the month! And, of course, everyone is free to discuss the write-up and bring in their own perspective on the match-up!
With that said, I wish you all a wonderful week!

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

This is an amazing plan and something I really wanted to see done.
I would avoid the red and blue colour for writing as they are more difficult to read (particularly red).

In the MU discussion I think you should also discuss the way different maps affect the MU. If you are open to MU suggestions, I would like to see less common MUs with underused civs too.

I'm looking forward for the future show matches !

[[Armag] diarouga]

Regarding France I like Castete's suggestion : aggressive forward rax. With a 13 cdb age up, you have good chances in the fb war and if you can secure stagecoach against a defensive brit the game is usually won (that's tough though).

As for Brit, I think that the 3v/700w/5v/700c miggo suggested is not great. From my experience, you'll barely have a better eco and of course worse early fortress. My main go would be the VC style Mitoe suggested (with an age up at one point), but it's also possible to play aggressively on some maps.

[Scroogie]

a 13 cdb age up

[Scroogie]

Great stuff @PancakePrincess! I volunteer for the general showmatches.

[miggo1999_]

Regarding France I like Castete's suggestion : aggressive forward rax. With a 13 cdb age up, you have good chances in the fb war and if you can secure stagecoach against a defensive brit the game is usually won (that's tough though).

As for Brit, I think that the 3v/700w/5v/700c miggo suggested is not great. From my experience, you'll barely have a better eco and of course worse early fortress. My main go would be the VC style Mitoe suggested (with an age up at one point), but it's also possible to play aggressively on some maps.

you don't need a lot better eco cause you do have lbs, and vc is slow and punishable in different ways imo

[[Armag] diarouga]

Regarding France I like Castete's suggestion : aggressive forward rax. With a 13 cdb age up, you have good chances in the fb war and if you can secure stagecoach against a defensive brit the game is usually won (that's tough though).

As for Brit, I think that the 3v/700w/5v/700c miggo suggested is not great. From my experience, you'll barely have a better eco and of course worse early fortress. My main go would be the VC style Mitoe suggested (with an age up at one point), but it's also possible to play aggressively on some maps.

you don't need a lot better eco cause you do have lbs, and vc is slow and punishable in different ways imo

From experience France can just wait and take the map if you don't boom hard, and while lb are great to defend in early fortress, they die in no time against cuirs with cav combat and the arsenal upgrade.
You can really go to the late fortress without a significant eco advantage or the map in this MU.
The old VC/700w/5v/700c is punishable by timings or FI builds, but a slower semi ff (like 20-30 unit semi ff) counters the FI. This means that you have to push hard in early age 3 as France to get an advantage, and that's exactly what Brit wants. I think France can do some damage with falcs because Brit delayed his age up, but if he doesn't that's game over.

[Cometk]

I don't have anything to contribute at the moment to the question of the matchup of the month.

Just wanted to say thank you so absolutely much for the effort you put into this @PancakePrincess!

[miggo1999_]

Regarding France I like Castete's suggestion : aggressive forward rax. With a 13 cdb age up, you have good chances in the fb war and if you can secure stagecoach against a defensive brit the game is usually won (that's tough though).

As for Brit, I think that the 3v/700w/5v/700c miggo suggested is not great. From my experience, you'll barely have a better eco and of course worse early fortress. My main go would be the VC style Mitoe suggested (with an age up at one point), but it's also possible to play aggressively on some maps.

you don't need a lot better eco cause you do have lbs, and vc is slow and punishable in different ways imo

From experience France can just wait and take the map if you don't boom hard, and while lb are great to defend in early fortress, they die in no time against cuirs with cav combat and the arsenal upgrade.
You can really go to the late fortress without a significant eco advantage or the map in this MU.
The old VC/700w/5v/700c is punishable by timings or FI builds, but a slower semi ff (like 20-30 unit semi ff) counters the FI. This means that you have to push hard in early age 3 as France to get an advantage, and that's exactly what Brit wants. I think France can do some damage with falcs because Brit delayed his age up, but if he doesn't that's game over.

yea that's what I mean with vc's vulnerability. But I don't understand what you mean with if you don't boom hard france can take the map? The point of my bo is that you defend france's 2 falc push (if they do that) and then take more map. And it's not like france can always get that large mass of cuir to punish this (in my experience).

[Zutazuta]

This is neat; great job.

[Challenger_Marco]

This i like a lot ,this i like a lot ,#content.

[Squamiger]

yea amazing stuff! this is the content i love. the only thing i would change is the font colors. I think you're better off sticking to black text for everything with bold headers

[BrookG]

It's great you caught up to this precious project for me, thank you!

[PancakePrincess]

Thanks for the positive reception everyone! I'm happy to be able to organise it and also thankful for all the help I've already gotten!

@Le Hussard sur le toit @Squamiger

I removed the colours and it shoul be better to read now. Thanks for the feedback!

@Scroogie

Thanks for being open to participate in the general showmatch! Now we just need an opponent. Anyone up for it?

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

@PancakePrincess It's much easier to the eyes but it needs a bit more formating to be easy to read. Names and section titles should be in bold, italic or underlined, so as to be easy to quickly parse which section you are reading.

[Scroogie]

Thanks for the positive reception everyone! I'm happy to be able to organise it and also thankful for all the help I've already gotten!

@Le Hussard sur le toit @Squamiger

I removed the colours and it shoul be better to read now. Thanks for the feedback!

@Scroogie

Thanks for being open to participate in the general showmatch! Now we just need an opponent. Anyone up for it?

@jesus3 @Passi Are good Brit players on my level (slightly below my level )

[Kanoo]

At a lower level, what if brits has a forward rax or two, and is pressuring me(French)? He now has map control.
Say I make crossbows against his initial musks, which he then adapts to longbows. I'm aware the longer i am in age 2, the better it gets for him.
So how do I counter this?

[[Armag] diarouga]

At a lower level, what if brits has a forward rax or two, and is pressuring me(French)? He now has map control.
Say I make crossbows against his initial musks, which he then adapts to longbows. I'm aware the longer i am in age 2, the better it gets for him.
So how do I counter this?

As castete said, if you age 13v and send 700w first, you will simply outmass him and win the fb war. After that, you should either try to end the game in colonial and switch to musk/huss (raid him with the hussars and be active on the map), or age for a vet musk/falc timing.

[[Armag] diarouga]

At a lower level, what if brits has a forward rax or two, and is pressuring me(French)? He now has map control.
Say I make crossbows against his initial musks, which he then adapts to longbows. I'm aware the longer i am in age 2, the better it gets for him.
So how do I counter this?

As castete said, if you age 13v and send 700w first, you will simply outmass him and win the fb war. After that, you should either try to end the game in colonial and switch to musk/huss (raid him with the hussars and be active on the map), or age for a vet musk/falc timing.

[Kanoo]

Thanks diarouga, is it just better to age 13 vill now with -50f start or is it okay if i stick to 14?

[Challenger_Marco]

At a lower level, what if brits has a forward rax or two, and is pressuring me(French)? He now has map control.
Say I make crossbows against his initial musks, which he then adapts to longbows. I'm aware the longer i am in age 2, the better it gets for him.
So how do I counter this?

This is just free win for french if he does fb musks you also open rax make musks add second rax with 700w and stable later ,for some reason french musks train faster than brits musks so you can outmass him early game and right click with 8 xbows shipment should be winning.

[harcha]

Thanks diarouga, is it just better to age 13 vill now with -50f start or is it okay if i stick to 14?

It's better if you get 13, but it's just harder now. Obviously you don't want to idle TC for 15 seconds.

for some reason french musks train faster than brits musks

That's not a thing. It's a matter of how much idle time your rax has. 1 rax with no idle time can mass kinda decently too.

[Kanoo]

Thanks guys! :)

[I_HaRRiiSoN_I]

Yeah i would recommend a scroogie vs passi matchup, would be some decent games to cast