How good are Native Alliances? Are they underused?

[Ev0lution]

When DE first came out, I started watching age III pro/high level games. I quickly noticed most of the time they did not make alliances with small Native Tribes. This bothered me because a major mechanic of the game the developers put in was being mostly ignored.

Let me first say: I'm aware of the limitations posed by incorporating natives into high level play. Most obviously, having to make a Trading Post to access the native units and techs is very often cost prohibitive in the early game. Not only is a 200 wood buy in a lot 4-6 minutes into the game, you also have to consider the opportunity costs: essentially choosing between a tp and another military building. In other words you trade one set of units for another. You also risk taking a simple but effective strategy and overcomplicating it, worsening the risk/reward ratio. Plus, to make long-term use of Natives you need to defend your TP or you lose access to them, and depending on the map they can be quite exposed. Map variance affects the Native Tribes you have access too as well, and often it's random which ones will appear. So players not only have to memorize which maps have what natives and what units and techs they give, but also scout where and what civ they are.

And that's all before getting to the units and techs themselves. While Native Warriors vary in strength, generally compared with mainline units they have lower attack and range for higher health and speed, which is often unfavorable. As well, though they don't use population space they have hard build limits, making them hard to mass. Though this can be increased by acquiring more allies or shipping improvements, you'll rarely see more than 30 native warriors maxed out. Most also cost partially wood, which is not only is slow to gather but also shifts resources away from buildings, particularly houses. As for techs, they vary wildly in terms of usefulness and are hard to incorporate on the fly. Many are pricy too.

Despite all that, I still think Native Alliances are under explored by high level players. Though some are more useful, I think all need a second look. While I think focusing solely on native warriors as an early strategy or an all in is high risk low-medium reward, they can be effective as a compliment to your main forces, either covering for a civilization's weaknesses or amplifying its strengths. Though you could incorporate native cards into your deck to improve their affect, that isn't always necessary, especially if you aren't going to train many long term, or use them mostly for techs. Some techs can be very useful depending on the civ and strategy, usually either boosting eco or a relevant military unit. And all of this becomes more accessible if you're running an ATP build.

But I don't just want to speak in generalities, so over the past day or two I put in some work putting together info and thinking things over.

First, I put together a spreadsheet listing all the minor native tribes, their units, and technologies. Hopefully having all this info in one place should make them easy to compare and to plan for.

General observations: aside from Apache Rides, all native warriors cost some combo of food and wood. Total resource cost per unit averages around 100-120. More expesive and powerful units tend to have lower build limits. Skrims, Archers, and Hand Inf are by far the most numerous units.

Most have at least one eco tech and one military tech, though it depends. Only Maya and Seminole have 2 techs, everyone else has 3. Most techs come in the first age, so they can be researched in transition if needed. There is some overlap in effects, but it those civs generally don't spawn on the same maps.

Then, I made a quick and dirty tier list of sorts. While I put thought into this, it's more or less a first impressions. More experienced or skilled players should feel free to correct me. Still, I think it's in the right direction.

Quick breakdown: the Cree and Cherokee have such strong eco boosting potential I think you don't necessarily have to build a strategy around them for them to be effective. Put another way, they should be effective under almost all circumstances. Both give extra villagers (either train 5 CDB or ship 4 settlers) plus another good eco tech. Plus, both have solid skirms, which could be handy in age II depending on the match up.

The next tier down each have good eco and/or military techs and solid units, but they tend to be more civ or strategy dependent. e.g. Comanche give -10% coin cost to all techs, which is decent help thru all stages of the game, and their unit and other techs are decently priced, but cav archers tend to be situational and their techs rely on you making cavalry.

Below that is much the same except fewer use cases, worse units, and worse techs. Not unusable, but more expensive or situational.

Next are natives whose bonuses don't kick in really until the late game. These are probably best left to treaty games. In standard 1v1s, they can be left on the back burner most games. Still worth getting eventually though.

Last are natives that frankly rely too heavily on their own unit. Unless you dedicate your strategy to using them, you can usually avoid them.

I also noted Inca, Klamath, and Tupi as "unlikely" since the maps they appear on are listed under competitive maps, but they don't often show up on the ladder or in tournaments.
The last thing I did was propose possible use cases where you'd want to ally with a native tribe. I tried to think of something for each one, though some were more obvious than others. Of course, this list is neither exhaustive nor optimized, so I'm open for suggestions and improvements. Hopefully these aren't too noobish.

And that's about all I've got. Hopefully this informs people who wanted to know more about minor native tribes and grease the wheels of people interested in developing native play.

[aaryngend]

When DE first came out, I started watching age III pro/high level games. I quickly noticed most of the time they did not make alliances with small Native Tribes. This bothered me because a major mechanic of the game the developers put in was being mostly ignored.

This is where you are wrong, in my opinion. Not everything in the game is major. Natives are at least always useful in lategame (no population cost), and often times for their technologies. That's enough. They are there to complement your army, not be the sole composition (except rushing with them), since all of them have a build limit.

With so much content, there is bound to be lesser used stuff. Deathmatch for example makes great use of natives.

[Peachrocks]

This is a topic that I’ve run into the ground and am now cautious to discuss it, along with other underused mechanics that are deemed ‘not important’. I personally would like to see more reward for game knowledge and adaptation rather than mastery through repetition but this is an unpopular opinion. It’s telling when the Inca get significant bonuses with nats they still basically never use them.

I do agree that they shouldn’t be the sole composition but they aren’t even useful as support or something to bolster numbers. With only a handful of exceptions they are straight up worse then units you can train yourself, even for civs with bad units of this type. Even late game their use is questionable. At best most are fire and forget. Get an upgrade and then pretend they don’t exist.

[helln00]

Wasn't there a point where native rushes were considered OP in EP? I kinda wonder what could be the lesson there on making natives more rewarding. I do remember when xp trickle for all TP was tested and it was too much but there is probably a middle ground somewhere.

I think the reason why even native's late game potential isn't realised is that most games never go to max pop even and even then require more resources for upgrades to become like even decent(also doesn't help that you require different upgrades for different natives). I think if a) upgrades were standardised so 1 upgrade affects all natives and maybe b) native tp spawn crates when completed (similar to the saltpeter tps in the indian campaign) to incentivise expansion.

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

Natives are used a lot in treaty so it's not like they are completely useless. There is a lot of game content that is even more useless (like half the cards have no use in any game mode...).

[Peachrocks]

Wasn't there a point where native rushes were considered OP in EP? I kinda wonder what could be the lesson there on making natives more rewarding. I do remember when xp trickle for all TP was tested and it was too much but there is probably a middle ground somewhere.

The trickle was the wrong idea. I do still think Nat TPs should be more about providing a passive supply of units rather than rushing with them or making them a significant part of your army but eh...

[duckzilla]

Wasn't there a point where native rushes were considered OP in EP? I kinda wonder what could be the lesson there on making natives more rewarding. I do remember when xp trickle for all TP was tested and it was too much but there is probably a middle ground somewhere.

The trickle was the wrong idea. I do still think Nat TPs should be more about providing a passive supply of units rather than rushing with them or making them a significant part of your army but eh...

This. I would like TPs actually being like "alliances" with natives, who then spawn AI-controlled allied units regularly to roam the map (free scouting!) and attack enemy units. Alternatively the boring version of just being a kind of summer palace.

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

Wasn't there a point where native rushes were considered OP in EP? I kinda wonder what could be the lesson there on making natives more rewarding. I do remember when xp trickle for all TP was tested and it was too much but there is probably a middle ground somewhere.

The trickle was the wrong idea. I do still think Nat TPs should be more about providing a passive supply of units rather than rushing with them or making them a significant part of your army but eh...

A slow unit trickle could be cool.

[Peachrocks]

Wasn't there a point where native rushes were considered OP in EP? I kinda wonder what could be the lesson there on making natives more rewarding. I do remember when xp trickle for all TP was tested and it was too much but there is probably a middle ground somewhere.

The trickle was the wrong idea. I do still think Nat TPs should be more about providing a passive supply of units rather than rushing with them or making them a significant part of your army but eh...

This. I would like TPs actually being like "alliances" with natives, who then spawn AI-controlled allied units regularly to roam the map (free scouting!) and attack enemy units. Alternatively the boring version of just being a kind of summer palace.

Boring is more likely to be accepted. Besides we don’t want the AI either getting lucky or being brain dead stupid deciding who wins and loses. Admittedly though that wouldn’t be a bad flavour win which is the point of this idea.

The reason natives are in the game is to represent that although most didn’t really have major sway over the conflict, they weren’t irrelevant. Therefore, they shouldn’t make up most or all of your army but should still be an option to provide support. Not the first time I’ve brought this idea up either but eh...

[arivus]

Cree and Cherokee are a hidden gem. Fully upgraded with Iroquois their HP can reach more than 800 and 600. Cherokee are even special since if fully upgraded their damage is about 35 while FP is 36, FP still wins in terms of range though.

[Peachrocks]

Cree and Cherokee are a hidden gem. Fully upgraded with Iroquois their HP can reach more than 800 and 600. Cherokee are even special since if fully upgraded their damage is about 35 while FP is 36, FP still wins in terms of range though.

Range and damage are the two most important stats on skirmisher units except for maybe speed but its rare skirmisher units break 4 speed. While both are on the 'better' end in terms of how good the unit is compared to other natives, they are still well behind other skirmishers. If they were really that good they would see occasional play for civs who lack good heavy infantry counters in age 2 (e.g British/Crossbow civs). Haudenosaunee Forest Prowlers are near pointless to compete with. The usual drawbacks of natives are too much to consider it seriously.

The other problem is that it's usually fairly easy to deny those trade posts. If you lose them, you lose all investment into upgrades/cards and whatever else. This is the bigger reason why Inca for example doesn't use them despite having a lot of good native ups. This problem is why I think the whole way they function needs to be reworked. Otherwise they'll end up being too powerful. Cards that give -25% cost and 25%+ to both HP and attack are ridiculous after all...

[harcha]

@Peachrocks that's not a good reason for Inca not using nats, because inca can't lose all 3 of their shadow alliences.

[Peachrocks]

@Peachrocks that's not a good reason for Inca not using nats, because inca can't lose all 3 of their shadow alliences.

Sure but that still takes a shipment to invest in that you otherwise wouldn't have to. Personally speaking I like using it but the base design of Inca is just... repulsive personally speaking. It also means that Inca doesn't invest in the native posts themselves which is the point here.

[helln00]

Cree and Cherokee are a hidden gem. Fully upgraded with Iroquois their HP can reach more than 800 and 600. Cherokee are even special since if fully upgraded their damage is about 35 while FP is 36, FP still wins in terms of range though.

navajo is also a bit disgusting now, being effectively 5 speed musks

[yurashic]

In 1v1 supremacy you usually get:
- comanche for cavalry hitpoints and speed
- cheyenne for hunts
- huron for the fishing upgrade

The native warriors that are occasionally worth training are rattan shields and tiger claws.

[Zutazuta]

I think it would be cool if Natives took over the role of the Asian consulate.

[Youssef]

seminole bow is a decent unit now, they have 16 range and cost only 75f 25w and 0 pop

[Jets]

Idk why no one trains Apache riders, on long age2 games they are excellent. On brits/russia/france.