Brits: DE vs RE

[P4blit0]

Hi, I play mostly British on legacy (RE) at the moment, and before switching to the Definitive Edition, I'd like to know what has changed for this civ. I saw new policitians and revolutions, are they good enough compared to the standard play ? (i.e. tower/500f then 7 lb politicians). And are there other civ mechanics that were modified ?
Thanks!

[harcha]

Revolutions are still very niche, and British politician changes are very minimal. Basically brits haven't changed. The mantlet age-up has been replaced by a bit less useless tomahawk ageup in case you really don't need longbows.

The most significant change is always starting with 300f 300w, which means that you can always go TP or 2 house or market. It's even possible to have the same pace as infamous French 12/10 by quickly dropping down the 2 manors and using sheep to reach Commerce age at 3:40-3:50.

[[Armag] diarouga]

In some situations 2v/2cows is better than 500f or tower + coin and TC age up can be good if you don't need the 7 lb. Nothing big anyway.

[P4blit0]

Thanks guys. Is 2v/2cows useful when you stay in base an are afraid to run out of hunts ? Or for booming BOs, to get even more vills ?

[GettinBetter2]

In which situation u age with the 2 cows and 2 vills @Diarouga ?

[[Armag] diarouga]

I think I'd send it instead of 500f most of the time. It's 2v+200f instead of 500f, sounds good.

[Mitoe]

Hmm, I don’t know if I agree with that. It takes about 4-5 minutes to pay off compared to 500f, and I think in many matchups you don’t have the time to waste.

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

Hmm, I don’t know if I agree with that. It takes about 4-5 minutes to pay off compared to 500f, and I think in many matchups you don’t have the time to waste.

If you task your 2 age up vills to your two age up cows (which begin at 300f by the way) you will eat them up in 120s (including decay). At which point you will have gathered 480f. Your two vills only need 10s to gather the 20f missing to get to 500.
So pay off time is 2min and 10s (and actually even less if you correctly task 4 vills to each cow as there will be less decay).

Calculation :
Time to gather 2 cow :
t=F/V where F is the total amount of food in the cows (600 here) and V is the speed of depletion.
V= 2*n+d where n is the number of villagers and d the decay rate.
Tf = t*2*n = F*2n/(2n+v) i the total amount of food gathered

So plugging in the numbers (n=2, d=1) you get Tf=300*2*2/5=240 for each cow, so 480f in total in t=600/5=120s.
If you task 4 vills you get t=300/9=66s and Tf ~ 530f.

[Hazza54321]

its felt shit everytime ive tried it so ill just stick to my tower + steel traps + coin for musks

[Riotcoke]

Honestly the tomahawk ageup isn't terrible.

[Mitoe]

Hmm, I don’t know if I agree with that. It takes about 4-5 minutes to pay off compared to 500f, and I think in many matchups you don’t have the time to waste.

If you task your 2 age up vills to your two age up cows (which begin at 300f by the way) you will eat them up in 120s (including decay). At which point you will have gathered 480f. Your two vills only need 10s to gather the 20f missing to get to 500.
So pay off time is 2min and 10s (and actually even less if you correctly task 4 vills to each cow as there will be less decay).

Calculation :
Time to gather 2 cow :
t=F/V where F is the total amount of food in the cows (600 here) and V is the speed of depletion.
V= 2*n+d where n is the number of villagers and d the decay rate.
Tf = t*2*n = F*2n/(2n+v) i the total amount of food gathered

So plugging in the numbers (n=2, d=1) you get Tf=300*2*2/5=240 for each cow, so 480f in total in t=600/5=120s.
If you task 4 vills you get t=300/9=66s and Tf ~ 530f.

I don't have the math, but I think it it takes longer than this because having the 500f to keep your TC busy actually gives you more time to continue chopping wood and construct additional manors. Especially if you also want to train some infantry behind it, it feels like this would be a little bit slow.

I did not realize it was 300f each though; are you sure it's that high? I thought maybe 200 or 250, max.

Regardless, like Hazza said I also have not found it to feel very strong. It seems like a big sacrifice to your defense or pressure for a minuscule economic boost that probably only comes into play once you have constructed all 20 manors.

[Aizamk]

You also don't have to spend food on training 2 villagers, that's like instant 200f that you can use to get out 5 extra pikemen from the 700w shipment.

[P4blit0]

If you task your 2 age up vills to your two age up cows (which begin at 300f by the way) you will eat them up in 120s (including decay). At which point you will have gathered 480f. Your two vills only need 10s to gather the 20f missing to get to 500.
So pay off time is 2min and 10s (and actually even less if you correctly task 4 vills to each cow as there will be less decay).

Calculation :
Time to gather 2 cow :
t=F/V where F is the total amount of food in the cows (600 here) and V is the speed of depletion.
V= 2*n+d where n is the number of villagers and d the decay rate.
Tf = t*2*n = F*2n/(2n+v) i the total amount of food gathered

So plugging in the numbers (n=2, d=1) you get Tf=300*2*2/5=240 for each cow, so 480f in total in t=600/5=120s.
If you task 4 vills you get t=300/9=66s and Tf ~ 530f.

I did the math differently and came up with slightly different results.

2v + 2 semi-fattened cow politician

G: herdables gathering rate: 2 food/vill.s
D: herdables decay rate: 0,76 food/s
C: semi-fattened cow: 300 food

Let's say x is the time (in seconds) needed for one cow to be fully gathered, taking decay into account.
With one vill per cow, we have x = C/(G+D) = 300/(2+0,76) = 108,7 seconds (~109 s).
During this time you can gather 2*109 = 218 food. 82 are decayed. For your two cows this is 436 food gathered in 109 seconds (218 villagers seconds).
With two vills per cow, we have x = C/(2G+D) = 300/(4+0,76) = 63 seconds.
During this time you can gather 4*63 = 252 food. 48 are decayed. For your two cows this is 504 food gathered in 63 seconds (252 villagers seconds).
But of course you'd have to retask 2 villagers that were already gathering food from huntables. Neglecting walk time, the actual difference is that those two vills collect 1,24 additional food per second, amounting to 1,24*2vills*63s = 156 additional food in comparison to huntables. During this time, one dead huntable would decay by 48f. Two dead huntables would decay by 96f.

All in all, if you task 2 vills per cow, this politician brings you:
- 2 vills (value: 200f + everything they can gather before the end of the game +TC seconds? not sure how to take them into account)
- 1 "bonus" cow (value: 252f)
- 1 cow gathered instead of huntables (value: 156f but your huntables decay by 48 to 96f)
==> Total value: 512 to 560 food available in 63 seconds + 2 more gatherers (+TC seconds?)


500f politician

G: crates gathering rate: 8 food/vill.s
C: crate: 500 food

Let's say x is the time (in seconds) needed for one crate to be fully gathered.
With one vill on the crate, we have x = C/G = 300/8 = 62,5 seconds.
With two vills on the crate, we have x = C/2G = 300/16 = 31,25 seconds. (62,5 villager.seconds)
But of course you'd have to retask 2 villagers that were already gathering food from huntables. Neglecting walk time, the actual difference is that those two vills collect 7,24 additional food per second, amounting to 7,24*2vills*31,25s = 452,5 additional food in comparison to huntables. During this time, one dead huntable would decay by 24f. Two dead huntables would decay by 48f.
==> Total value: 404 to 428 food available in 31 seconds

I won't make the comparison with the tower+coin politician because the goals are not the same.
Anyway, with those numbers in head, would you rather go for the 500f or the 2v2cows ? Why ?


EDIT: hunting dogs would slightly boost the 2v2cows because of higher gathering rate and subsequent lower decaying time. Also, I didn't try other combinations of gathering villagers, maybe there are more efficient ways to play for each politician.

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

@P4blit0 I was too lazy to look for the decay rate and just did a fermi calculation using 1f/s as the decay rate (so the real results are actually better than what my calculation assume).

Note that for the 2vills+2 cows politician you don't need to factor in loss income from vills gathering from cows instead of hunts, since you task the two free vills from the age up to gather the cows (those vills would not exist if you had taken the 500f politician).

[P4blit0]

Yes of course, maybe I wasn't clear but in the whole post I'm considering that the two cows are eaten at the same time. I don't consider the cow-hunt switch when speaking about one villager per cow, only when you task two vills per cow. When you eat both cows with 2 vills on each, you do need to move 2 vills from hunts.