Can the Dutch beat the Germans?

[[Armag] diarouga]

To give some credit to this idea, I had a long discussion with diarouga a year or two ago where diarouga argued that 700w builds were too slow against France 5 huss starts.

Probably older than a year or two ago, more like 4-5 :)

[RefluxSemantic]

To give some credit to this idea, I had a long discussion with diarouga a year or two ago where diarouga argued that 700w builds were too slow against France 5 huss starts.

Probably older than a year or two ago, more like 4-5 :)

Time flies when you're having fun. (Think its 2-3 though, I recall having stopped playing actively already but whatever and it was definitely after the 300w bank patch).

Would you still stand by this opinion though?

[Kaiserklein]

Yeah it used to be limited by food. Now you have the extra food + wood crates every game, so you always have 350f ready. When click up you basically have 100f 100w banked already, so you get the transition bank much earlier, which snowballs hard as you don't even need to mine any coin to prod vils in early colo. So you just get a big food stack.
In fact I usually end up tasking like 3-4 vils on wood crates because that's what's limiting me from getting my 3rd bank up asap.
Keep in mind germany has an inferior start nowadays.

Btw generally speaking, no one really opens bank wagon nowadays vs a cav start. You get your own 5 huss out early enough to hold with 700w start. Bank wagon is only really used vs more aggressive civs.

[RefluxSemantic]

Yeah it used to be limited by food. Now you have the extra food + wood crates every game, so you always have 350f ready. When click up you basically have 100f 100w banked already, so you get the transition bank much earlier, which snowballs hard as you don't even need to mine any coin to prod vils in early colo. So you just get a big food stack.
In fact I usually end up tasking like 3-4 vils on wood crates because that's what's limiting me from getting my 3rd bank up asap.
Keep in mind germany has an inferior start nowadays.

Btw generally speaking, no one really opens bank wagon nowadays vs a cav start. You get your own 5 huss out early enough to hold with 700w start. Bank wagon is only really used vs more aggressive civs.

Maybe with the good crate starts its different now.

I dont think Dutch meta was about bank wagon vs cav starts since as long as I can remember. I just brought this up because diarouga once argued that this sort of BO couldnt even hold standard French huss start, so I can see how German cav start is harder.

Its a pretty fine line though. If Uhlans are at the third bank 5 seconds before it is up, you're in trouble. If its 5 secs after, the Uhlans are useless. Maybe nowadays you dont get there in time anymore.

[Garja]

It's true Germans are nerfed with DE crate start but now we're back to RE ulhans again. So ye German early pressure is what dictates the MU into Dutch trying to catch up whole game. Also if Germans go for ulhan+dopp I don't think 700w stable sart will be able to defend it because everything is delayed. But I might be wrong.
Also using some of your wood to produce pikes and still be passive is meh. Much better imo to age up with the logistician and do halb+skirm semi. Vs German you may even want to stick with halbs actually. Skirm/halb/huss as main combo and some ruyters to defend vs raids.

If you open halbs ger can just scout your age up very easily and go naked ff, while you delayed your age up and cut a bank since no 400w. Or just quick cav semi anyway because halbs are so slow and will get run around. Sounds horrible ngl.
Anyway having RE uhlans doesn't mean you can dictate the MU in colo. It only makes uhlans better vs huss which again I don't think should be your opening. And even if you open huss, ger is slower and dutch is faster so they can hold. We've seen it tons of times.

Halb age up doesn't really delays you much. You get 200w and a halb instead of 400w 100f. Making pikes out of wood crates (or chopping wood) is slowing you just as much.

[Kaiserklein]

It delays your boom because you have 100 less food for your transition bank, and then you also can't get a bank from your 400w age up. So yeah you get a halb and can prod from your rax earlier, but you're definitely delaying your boom by a lot. And then if your opponent just doesn't make cav, you're just gonna have 1 useless halb, a rax you don't train units from, and the ability to train halbs in colo... but you're going fortress.

[fei123456]

Halberds are slow, and may not work that well against raids.