Can the Dutch beat the Germans?

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Korea South ssaa22
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Can the Dutch beat the Germans?

Post by ssaa22 »

In several battles with Germany, I became completely hopeless. Even if I try 2bank FF or 2age rush, they all fall to Uhlan. Is there any way for the Dutch to beat Germany?

Unfortunately, it seems that our Dutchdude have not yet documented the battle against Germany. It's really unfortunate that I can't get help from him.
The text may be awkward using a translator, But I hope we can talk a lot about good things. GG
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Re: Can the Dutch beat the Germans?

Post by Luciofrancosi »

I struggle with germans too.
I think german naked ff is even harder to deal eith because their timing comes even faster and they seem to get a lot of units super early
"Supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting"

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Re: Can the Dutch beat the Germans?

Post by princeofcarthage »

Yes.
Fine line to something great is a strange change.
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Re: Can the Dutch beat the Germans?

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Post by helln00 »

Isnt 2 banks a bit unambitious? I thought the standard dutch FF calls for 4 banks as the non-greedy option and defend behind the walls of banks
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Re: Can the Dutch beat the Germans?

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Post by Garja »

cav semi with 8 pikes or rax semi with halb politician
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Re: Can the Dutch beat the Germans?

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Post by Hazza54321 »

Yeah id probably do 2 batches of cav + 8 pike or just 4 bank + 8 pike. Smth like 700w bw 8 pike 700g for the 2 huss batches and 700w bw 8 pike for no huss
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Re: Can the Dutch beat the Germans?

Post by Garja »

I think you want bank wagon first to cope with ulhans. Without early stable you risk too much vs early pressure and ulhan+dopp timing.
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Re: Can the Dutch beat the Germans?

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Post by Kaiserklein »

5 pikes in chokes semi does quite well. You can be up early while having a lot of banks (at least 4) and uhlans can't really engage pikes in chokes without taking a shitty trade. It's fast enough that you click up before they can timing push you in colo, and you're able to hold in early fortress if they just age. Also can queue a huss in colo if you wanna be safe. And if they add dops you can add skirms easily.

I don't really like starting huss then going 8 pikes so much, because you have to invest a lot into these units, while germany can just mix in like 3 dops and still keep you stuck in base, while aging earlier than you. 8 pikes basically just work if ger commits to fighting your huss with pure uhlan, but no one good would do this past a certain time in game where you expect pikes to be out (like 6 min +).

Also depends on the map and on what you scout ofc, if you see extra TPs being dropped then 8 pikes becomes better so you can deny the TP line, as they won't easily have dops out early on when going stagecoach.
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Re: Can the Dutch beat the Germans?

Post by RefluxSemantic »

Hazza54321 wrote:Yeah id probably do 2 batches of cav + 8 pike or just 4 bank + 8 pike. Smth like 700w bw 8 pike 700g for the 2 huss batches and 700w bw 8 pike for no huss
This would probably work well against most players, but in my testing the german player can beeline his 2 uhlans to your base and delay you so much that you have nothing against the follow up 5 uhlans and then the game spirals out of control. You cant get your infrastructure up in time and cant gather enough resources to get enough units against the uhlans. 700w first forces you into a rax + pike opening.

Maybe 700w directly into 8 pikes can work though, Ive never really tested this with the huge bank xp that we have nowadays.
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Re: Can the Dutch beat the Germans?

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Post by Kaiserklein »

By your testing you mean like 5 years ago when dutch was bottom and ger was top? Because the MU has changed a lot, and you definitely don't just get surrounded by uhlans as dutch in colo, even with cav start. Ger usually gets to idle a bit and siege down a house or something, but they can't really commit to fighting in their base
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Can the Dutch beat the Germans?

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Post by Luciofrancosi »

I am only 1.2k elo rating at the moment so I might not be the best to advise but now with the update I have just managed to win vs a German player by being aggressive with early halbs.
"Supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting"

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Re: Can the Dutch beat the Germans?

Post by RefluxSemantic »

Kaiserklein wrote:By your testing you mean like 5 years ago when dutch was bottom and ger was top? Because the MU has changed a lot, and you definitely don't just get surrounded by uhlans as dutch in colo, even with cav start. Ger usually gets to idle a bit and siege down a house or something, but they can't really commit to fighting in their base
Its an unchanged part of the mu though. But sure, if you want you can dismiss it. Or test it yourself. Whatever floats your boat buddy
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Re: Can the Dutch beat the Germans?

Post by princeofcarthage »

RefluxSemantic wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:By your testing you mean like 5 years ago when dutch was bottom and ger was top? Because the MU has changed a lot, and you definitely don't just get surrounded by uhlans as dutch in colo, even with cav start. Ger usually gets to idle a bit and siege down a house or something, but they can't really commit to fighting in their base
Its an unchanged part of the mu though. But sure, if you want you can dismiss it. Or test it yourself. Whatever floats your boat buddy
I don't think his boat floats tbh
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Re: Can the Dutch beat the Germans?

Post by Garja »

It's true Germans are nerfed with DE crate start but now we're back to RE ulhans again. So ye German early pressure is what dictates the MU into Dutch trying to catch up whole game. Also if Germans go for ulhan+dopp I don't think 700w stable sart will be able to defend it because everything is delayed. But I might be wrong.
Also using some of your wood to produce pikes and still be passive is meh. Much better imo to age up with the logistician and do halb+skirm semi. Vs German you may even want to stick with halbs actually. Skirm/halb/huss as main combo and some ruyters to defend vs raids.
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Re: Can the Dutch beat the Germans?

Post by fei123456 »

In DE it's fine.
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Re: Can the Dutch beat the Germans?

Post by dutchdude117 »

The way I like to play this match up is to scout his second shipment with the envoy. (The first shipment is always 3 sw and you need to hide from the 2 uhlan) if it is 700c then German is going naked ff. If it is 700w you know you need to scout for unit production buildings. 700w could also mean stage coach, but I think unlikely. There is alot more to say, but I will continue later.


The most important thing vs German is to herd hunts on top of tc and build building to avoid raiding. If you do this you will not have to build units against his free ship ment uhlans.
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Re: Can the Dutch beat the Germans?

Post by ssaa22 »

dutchdude117 wrote:The way I like to play this match up is to scout his second shipment with the envoy. (The first shipment is always 3 sw and you need to hide from the 2 uhlan) if it is 700c then German is going naked ff. If it is 700w you know you need to scout for unit production buildings. 700w could also mean stage coach, but I think unlikely. There is alot more to say, but I will continue later.


The most important thing vs German is to herd hunts on top of tc and build building to avoid raiding. If you do this you will not have to build units against his free ship ment uhlans.
I was waiting for your answer. many THX
The text may be awkward using a translator, But I hope we can talk a lot about good things. GG
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Re: Can the Dutch beat the Germans?

Post by Kaiserklein »

RefluxSemantic wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:By your testing you mean like 5 years ago when dutch was bottom and ger was top? Because the MU has changed a lot, and you definitely don't just get surrounded by uhlans as dutch in colo, even with cav start. Ger usually gets to idle a bit and siege down a house or something, but they can't really commit to fighting in their base
Its an unchanged part of the mu though. But sure, if you want you can dismiss it. Or test it yourself. Whatever floats your boat buddy
It was a genuine question. I think you can appreciate a match up can change a lot in 5 year, both because of balance and meta evolving.
Anyway, it's totally not an unchanged part of the MU. For instance ger never has an early TP nowadays so they'll just get less uhlans out. While dutch benefits from the extra bank xp by having their first two colo shipments back to back, and the 3rd earlier, so e.g 8 pikes is more affordable. Also they have a wood start so their bank boom is just faster.
I've played this MU from both sides dozens of times, including some on recent DE patches, so I think I've got to test it a fair bit yeah. And again dutch doesn't just "die" like that to a simple cav semi.
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Re: Can the Dutch beat the Germans?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Garja wrote:It's true Germans are nerfed with DE crate start but now we're back to RE ulhans again. So ye German early pressure is what dictates the MU into Dutch trying to catch up whole game. Also if Germans go for ulhan+dopp I don't think 700w stable sart will be able to defend it because everything is delayed. But I might be wrong.
Also using some of your wood to produce pikes and still be passive is meh. Much better imo to age up with the logistician and do halb+skirm semi. Vs German you may even want to stick with halbs actually. Skirm/halb/huss as main combo and some ruyters to defend vs raids.
If you open halbs ger can just scout your age up very easily and go naked ff, while you delayed your age up and cut a bank since no 400w. Or just quick cav semi anyway because halbs are so slow and will get run around. Sounds horrible ngl.
Anyway having RE uhlans doesn't mean you can dictate the MU in colo. It only makes uhlans better vs huss which again I don't think should be your opening. And even if you open huss, ger is slower and dutch is faster so they can hold. We've seen it tons of times.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Can the Dutch beat the Germans?

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Post by Aizamk »

I don't understand why there is talk about semi-ing when you already get speedy vet halbs in age II now?
oranges.
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Re: Can the Dutch beat the Germans?

Post by RefluxSemantic »

Kaiserklein wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:By your testing you mean like 5 years ago when dutch was bottom and ger was top? Because the MU has changed a lot, and you definitely don't just get surrounded by uhlans as dutch in colo, even with cav start. Ger usually gets to idle a bit and siege down a house or something, but they can't really commit to fighting in their base
Its an unchanged part of the mu though. But sure, if you want you can dismiss it. Or test it yourself. Whatever floats your boat buddy
It was a genuine question. I think you can appreciate a match up can change a lot in 5 year, both because of balance and meta evolving.
Anyway, it's totally not an unchanged part of the MU. For instance ger never has an early TP nowadays so they'll just get less uhlans out. While dutch benefits from the extra bank xp by having their first two colo shipments back to back, and the 3rd earlier, so e.g 8 pikes is more affordable. Also they have a wood start so their bank boom is just faster.
I've played this MU from both sides dozens of times, including some on recent DE patches, so I think I've got to test it a fair bit yeah. And again dutch doesn't just "die" like that to a simple cav semi.
All that is not really relevant though? I'm specifically talking about how one specific build order for Dutch fails in my opinion because the damage the first 2 uhlans and then the next 5 uhlans do is way too much.
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Re: Can the Dutch beat the Germans?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Yeah but precisely, do they do way too much? The first 2 uhlans do close to nothing if you just don't suck. They barely idle you, and that idle time is anyway fine because TC fire is pretty efficient vs uhlans.
Then by the time the 5 uhlans batch comes in, you have units out or almost, and he's got overall like 6 uhlans because of TC fire. 5 huss totally hold that on their own. And then after that they'll bring another 7 uhlans, that's when it would become scary; but in fact they won't commit in your base because you could have pikes popping anytime, or even mm.
Which is why at the end of the day, it's just a bit of idle time, and possibly sieging down your furthest house without committing to a fight.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Can the Dutch beat the Germans?

Post by RefluxSemantic »

Kaiserklein wrote:Yeah but precisely, do they do way too much? The first 2 uhlans do close to nothing if you just don't suck. They barely idle you, and that idle time is anyway fine because TC fire is pretty efficient vs uhlans.
Then by the time the 5 uhlans batch comes in, you have units out or almost, and he's got overall like 6 uhlans because of TC fire. 5 huss totally hold that on their own. And then after that they'll bring another 7 uhlans, that's when it would become scary; but in fact they won't commit in your base because you could have pikes popping anytime, or even mm.
Which is why at the end of the day, it's just a bit of idle time, and possibly sieging down your furthest house without committing to a fight.
The thing is, if you get idled too much you don't get a batch of 5 huss. You get a late batch of 2 huss. And that's where it spiraled out of control in the times that I tried it. But maybe with better micro you can do fine. The problem is that even if they should in principle not idle you too much, these 2 uhlans can delay your bank a lot (so actually you're getting idled quite a bit) and maybe even delay your stable. It's 30-40 seconds of delay that lead to a terribly slow and disappointing hussar batch, and then the 5 uhlans disrupt and delay you even more.
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Re: Can the Dutch beat the Germans?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Nah you basically always get a batch of 5 huss out if you start 700w. Usually I have enough resources to get a bank, a market and HD, 2 houses and a stable up. That's 900w (and 50g for HD) with only 700w + remaining 50w from 400w. I can afford to buy 100w, chop 50w, and pay 50g for HD, on top of getting 5 huss. So surely with a tiny bit of idle time (again 2 uhlans don't even really idle you) you can just cut the market and get 5 huss.

Also, I dunno how 2 uhlans can delay your bank. You get 700w on the field at 4:50, you gather the crates and build the bank, surely it's up by 5:30. Meanwhile ger pops 2 uhlans at 5:10 at best and still has to cross the map. There's no way they delay your bank more than a tiny bit in the worst case. Same goes for your stable.
And that's the last bank you build for a while. 4th bank is from your bank wagon which just can't really die unless you fuck up terribly.
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Re: Can the Dutch beat the Germans?

Post by RefluxSemantic »

Kaiserklein wrote:Nah you basically always get a batch of 5 huss out if you start 700w. Usually I have enough resources to get a bank, a market and HD, 2 houses and a stable up. That's 900w (and 50g for HD) with only 700w + remaining 50w from 400w. I can afford to buy 100w, chop 50w, and pay 50g for HD, on top of getting 5 huss. So surely with a tiny bit of idle time (again 2 uhlans don't even really idle you) you can just cut the market and get 5 huss.

Also, I dunno how 2 uhlans can delay your bank. You get 700w on the field at 4:50, you gather the crates and build the bank, surely it's up by 5:30. Meanwhile ger pops 2 uhlans at 5:10 at best and still has to cross the map. There's no way they delay your bank more than a tiny bit in the worst case. Same goes for your stable.
And that's the last bank you build for a while. 4th bank is from your bank wagon which just can't really die unless you fuck up terribly.
I think the timing of your third bank is actually food limited. I would have to test this again. I just remember trying this (quite long ago) and the results were so absolutely terrible that I discarded the concept entirely.

To give some credit to this idea, I had a long discussion with diarouga a year or two ago where diarouga argued that 700w builds were too slow against France 5 huss starts. I didnt really see his case back then, but the German start disrupts you a lot sooner than France does. Id have to test this some more but I dont have a working copy of aoe anymore. Maybe I missed something or somehow based my conclusions on germany getting 200f in age 1 treasures. Its quite long ago.

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