How to beat Yumi archers as french?

No Flag manwithoutname
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How to beat Yumi archers as french?

Post by manwithoutname »

When playing vs Japan, my go-to build is 700w, 600w and 8 xbow. I end up putting a lot of pressure with a combination of musketeers and xbow, which usually wins me the game vs Japan.

However, when they open with yumi archers they just snipe my xbows from behind buildings, and my build just crumbles to dust. I tried adding a stable with the 600w when I noticed, and then sending 700c to fund cav, but they cannot take good fights in between buildings.

Is this just a matter of positioning in my battles, or should I go to fortress when I see them doing that?
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Re: How to beat Yumi archers as french?

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

Your bows should be able to overwhelm the yumi due to the sheer number difference. If this is not the case, you need to watch some tournament games and revise your builds. Be wary of a daimyo pop, though.

You can't win in late colonial unless you did significant damage, which doesn't tend to happen. Instead you'll want to follow the rush up with an age up and some skirm/cuirassier/falc pressure.
Austria Jerimuno
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Re: How to beat Yumi archers as french?

Post by Jerimuno »

my go to is just a very simple standard 4cdb - make rax and 2 houses from 400w, make 5 musks and immediately siege a shrine, keep making 5 more musks - then 700w add a stable and make 5 hus, can overwhelm 5 ashi 5 yumi who are poking on your 10musks, then 700c to either make 10 more musk 5 more hus if jap is out on the map poking on your army or age up instantly when he is in base, if you kept making units age with 600c after, then send skirms or cuir if he is aging up as well, or falcs if he isnt aging up. works well for me
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Re: How to beat Yumi archers as french?

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Post by Kaiserklein »

Jerimuno wrote:my go to is just a very simple standard 4cdb - make rax and 2 houses from 400w, make 5 musks and immediately siege a shrine, keep making 5 more musks - then 700w add a stable and make 5 hus, can overwhelm 5 ashi 5 yumi who are poking on your 10musks, then 700c to either make 10 more musk 5 more hus if jap is out on the map poking on your army or age up instantly when he is in base, if you kept making units age with 600c after, then send skirms or cuir if he is aging up as well, or falcs if he isnt aging up. works well for me
They can just go ashi if you go musk or musk huss, it kinda plays into their hands. Your musks and huss won't achieve much in colo, and then are somewhat useless in fortress, while their ashis aren't. And since you get no advantage over them in colo (e.g stagecoach or hurting them with some timing) you're pretty much just behind in fortress.
Mr_Bramboy wrote:Your bows should be able to overwhelm the yumi due to the sheer number difference. If this is not the case, you need to watch some tournament games and revise your builds. Be wary of a daimyo pop, though.
Well no, your bows shouldn't really be able to overwhelm their yumis if they don't greed. Unless you get a neat 12/10 or some sort of OP start.

I think if you scout they sent kami (by clicking on a shrine), and/or they're staying on port consulate, and/or at least they're not aging up with torii gates, then trying to bow rush is a reasonable gamble. Otherwise you need another plan, e.g bow/huss stagecoach semi (kinda hard to execute), or some semi without stagecoach if they're really not greeding.
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Re: How to beat Yumi archers as french?

Post by Jerimuno »

Yea only make hus if they start yumi ofc, otherwise age with 700c
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Re: How to beat Yumi archers as french?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Yeah but that's the thing, if you just go for a simple musk semi you're behind. Can't go musk falc because of flaming arrows so your musks are just useless. Plus you got no stagecoach in colo and sieged no shrine. They just follow you up and you have basically no window to push them.
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Re: How to beat Yumi archers as french?

Post by aaryngend »

Kaiserklein wrote:Otherwise you need another plan, e.g bow/huss stagecoach semi (kinda hard to execute), or some semi without stagecoach if they're really not greeding.
Hard to execute because of what? Macro, to get full batches out?
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Latvia harcha
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Re: How to beat Yumi archers as french?

Post by harcha »

@aaryngend
No, because your xbow count is not flexible (you get limited amount of wood) and not good units overall, while japan can be very flexible with their ashi nagi composition, be it a timing or an ageup, all the while having made good units.
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Re: How to beat Yumi archers as french?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Hard to execute because of the macro mostly. It's just hard to get all the wood for TPs, stagecoach, a stable, and bows, while also getting 4 cdbs in your 2 first shipments. And then get a decent batch of huss out somewhat early.
One solution is to chop more than usual with gang saw in transition and open 4 cdbs to queue xbows while adding 1 or 2 TPs, then follow up with 700w for stagecoach, your stable, and more bows, while shifting cdbs from wood to coin to queue huss, then rely on stagecoach for wood income. It's greedier early on but means you'll have a pretty strong mass and follow up in mid colonial.
Another solution is to open 700w so you can train bows and add your stable from it, but you delay stagecoach / you 3rd TP or so, and will have to chop or buy wood for it. This is somewhat more flexible because you can just give up on getting stagecoach altogether if you need to, and get huss out earlier on top of some bows, so you have more units / a better composition early on. But your follow up will just be worse.

It's also hard to execute because of the micro to some extent, as microing bows vs ashis if you don't outmass much is not easy. And finally hard because it's a fine line between holding your stagecoach and being ahead, or taking a slightly inferior trade which snowballs into losing your fb and/or some TPs, and probably losing the game.
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Re: How to beat Yumi archers as french?

Post by fei123456 »

Send 700g instead of 8 xbow for a batch of hussar. If you're in fortress age, train veteran hussar instead of cuirass.
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Germany Joe
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Re: How to beat Yumi archers as french?

Post by Joe »

fei123456 wrote:Send 700g instead of 8 xbow for a batch of hussar. If you're in fortress age, train veteran hussar instead of cuirass.
lol wont work cause japan snowballs u in age 2 if u make hus
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Re: How to beat Yumi archers as french?

Post by UpMySleeves »

I think that, unless it's a much less skilled player, or they make a mistake and go out of their base too far, and you can catch them, you really shouldn't win in the 2nd age. With the pathing, potential walling, minutemen, the 2x2 unit shipments, daymio, explorers, consulate units, I almost don't want to go under TC to force fights.

I am in no way a skilled player, but my play is to try to get Fortress with some damage done, get map[tps, tc?], and use artillery, Gendarmes and Skirmishers to my advantage. It's always challenging to play vs Japan, but I'm lucky that on my level Japan mains are a bit slow mechanically.
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