How would you buff the Ottomans economically if you were the developer?

India Veer_84
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How would you buff the Ottomans economically if you were the developer?

Post by Veer_84 »

Hi everyone,

Ottomans' free settler spawn used to be considered as OP back in the Vanilla days but now it seems pale in comparison to Spain's logistician, Sweden's Torps or the United States getting a factory in age 3 (I think it is actually an age 1 card).

Hazza considers Ottomans to be a D-Tier Civ in 1 v 1 precisely because its boom is too slow to pay off.

If you wanted to give the Ottomans an economic bonus, what would you give them to make it more competitive?

I would say give them at least the medicine card. It would be nice if they got an age 1 card or even an age 2 card to speed up their villager spawn seconds to 25 seconds (disabling their mosque wood upgrades of course). :P

What do you think?
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Re: How would you buff the Ottomans economically if you were the developer?

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Post by Goodspeed »

Buff mosque techs and silk road.
We tried this but with such changes it takes many iterations to get the numbers right and we never really finished the job.
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Re: How would you buff the Ottomans economically if you were the developer?

Post by princeofcarthage »

There is no need to buff otto. Drop the idea that every civ needs to be viable in every situation. Otto has/or atleast had good rush, good semi ff/ff, and fi/revolt. Would probably be helpful though that they get some way to replace lost vills faster. Maybe like vills for 100f which trains at 25 seconds but is limited to only lost number of vills. Accept that it is not a late game civ and you are fine.
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Re: How would you buff the Ottomans economically if you were the developer?

Post by Veer_84 »

princeofcarthage wrote:There is no need to buff otto. Drop the idea that every civ needs to be viable in every situation. Otto has/or atleast had good rush, good semi ff/ff, and fi/revolt. Would probably be helpful though that they get some way to replace lost vills faster. Maybe like vills for 100f which trains at 25 seconds but is limited to only lost number of vills. Accept that it is not a late game civ and you are fine.
You have a point but looks like the developers are indeed trying to make every civ viable in every situation. That's why you get balance changes like the Spain's logistician.

You say they have a good rush but they're pale in comparison to Spain's age 2 logistician or the US simply outbooming them with their factory in age 3.
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Re: How would you buff the Ottomans economically if you were the developer?

Post by Veer_84 »

Goodspeed wrote:Buff mosque techs and silk road.
We tried this but with such changes it takes many iterations to get the numbers right and we never really finished the job.
DE had already tried to buff mosque techs by making it 50% cheaper.
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Re: How would you buff the Ottomans economically if you were the developer?

Post by Goodspeed »

That's probably just our change that they copied. But it was always going to take more tweaking
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Re: How would you buff the Ottomans economically if you were the developer?

Post by princeofcarthage »

Well they could stop listening to EP Team first if they really want to balance patch.
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Re: How would you buff the Ottomans economically if you were the developer?

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Post by Timurid »

#trainablespahi #infinitespahi
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Re: How would you buff the Ottomans economically if you were the developer?

Post by Jets »

Timurid wrote:#trainablespahi #infinitespahi
On a daily basis, Otto's eco couldn't afford training a single batch of spahis. Unless you've boomed already or playing treaty.
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Re: How would you buff the Ottomans economically if you were the developer?

Post by princeofcarthage »

Jets wrote:
Timurid wrote:#trainablespahi #infinitespahi
On a daily basis, Otto's eco couldn't afford training a single batch of spahis. Unless you've boomed already or playing treaty.
We can shorten the batch to 3 and pretend like they can :hmm:
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Re: How would you buff the Ottomans economically if you were the developer?

Post by fei123456 »

Ottoman are never OP by their free vills; their strength is built on their fast age up and good units.

I'd rather buff their abus in fortress. They are still good units in age 2 (but it's hard to say they're OP), but they perform badly against every fortress unit (goons, skirm, cannon). You can only send 5 abus from shipment (750 res lol), and you have to upgrade them; but fortress abus is still outranged by skirms. It may still be insane if you have 20+ or even 30+ abus guns with upgrades, but you can never reach that point unless you outplayed your opponent 10 times.

Also buffing fortress abus won't make their rush/FF great again.
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Re: How would you buff the Ottomans economically if you were the developer?

Post by Squamiger »

Otto has strong eco options. Fish boom or 4 TC boom with full mosque upgrades is enough
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Re: How would you buff the Ottomans economically if you were the developer?

Post by CR_Joops »

Bring back 235hp Jans
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Re: How would you buff the Ottomans economically if you were the developer?

Post by RenektonSion »

Veer_84 wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:Buff mosque techs and silk road.
We tried this but with such changes it takes many iterations to get the numbers right and we never really finished the job.
DE had already tried to buff mosque techs by making it 50% cheaper.
That was an adjustment to make it more comfortable to do the improvements of the mosque, because it also increased the creation time of the villagers by 3 seconds, so really a buff was not
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Re: How would you buff the Ottomans economically if you were the developer?

Post by Adribird »

Abus are worse rate of fire (a bit Nerf except when they have some upgrade), Janis cost a bit more cheaper but has 210 HP instead of 235 (a bit Nerf too).

With a bad SG or no TP/sea Maps, Otto is Tier D.
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Re: How would you buff the Ottomans economically if you were the developer?

Post by I_HaRRiiSoN_I »

princeofcarthage wrote:Well they could stop listening to EP Team first if they really want to balance patch.
The games balance has nothing to do with EP or its members since its games release. :salt:
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Re: How would you buff the Ottomans economically if you were the developer?

Post by Le Hussard sur le toit »

I_HaRRiiSoN_I wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:Well they could stop listening to EP Team first if they really want to balance patch.
The games balance has nothing to do with EP or its members since its games release. :salt:
And coincidentally balance has been shit since release.
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Re: How would you buff the Ottomans economically if you were the developer?

Post by duckzilla »

Buffing Ottomans is difficult. You would want to achieve two things at the same time: giving a consistent eco buff that does not rely too much on spawns/TPs/water and does not yield benefits too early making their rush/ff much better. I guess we are talking about an eco buff that only becomes relevant when Otto is still in colo after ~10 min or after ~12-15 min in an ff case. Sounds like such a buff would need to depend on a hc shipment to prevent it from strengthening already good strategies.

I could imagine that a shipment surrounding the rapid Ottoman expansion in Europe/Levant could be fun. E.g.
  • Eyalet of Egypt (II): sends a TC wagon, increases TC limit by 1, and reduces settler spawn time by 5 seconds.
  • Breadbasket of the Mediterranean (II): sends 300 food. All subsequent shipments send an additional 300 food.
Whatever is written above: this is no financial advice.

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Re: How would you buff the Ottomans economically if you were the developer?

Post by Le Hussard sur le toit »

Yeah any buff that is supposed to bring in different strategic options should take the form either of a shipment or of an age up. The best example is Spanish gold.
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Re: How would you buff the Ottomans economically if you were the developer?

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Post by Goodspeed »

duckzilla wrote:Buffing Ottomans is difficult. You would want to achieve two things at the same time: giving a consistent eco buff that does not rely too much on spawns/TPs/water and does not yield benefits too early making their rush/ff much better.
Which means simply a way for Otto to make an investment in economy. It has to be an investment because that means they can't reap the benefits while using one of their strong aggressive builds. So examples of what not to do would be +1 vill, starting crate changes, etc.

But buffing the mosque techs is a no brainer; It does exactly what you want. The reason it's difficult is that the Otto meta would have to change drastically before you would have any idea if you got the numbers right, and that takes time. At this point, with the player base as it is, probably too much time.
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Re: How would you buff the Ottomans economically if you were the developer?

Post by princeofcarthage »

I_HaRRiiSoN_I wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:Well they could stop listening to EP Team first if they really want to balance patch.
The games balance has nothing to do with EP or its members since its games release. :salt:
Well when they released DE, they took many/most of the things from EP, consulted EP team, probably still do. EP 8 was shit and DE on release was shit. They need to consult with people who actually spent time understanding the original game design/thought process behind original game rather than biased top players with zero clue about game balancing.
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Re: How would you buff the Ottomans economically if you were the developer?

Post by look »

remove the automatic vill and change the economic issue of the civ..
then we’ll have something better and a different civ design.
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Re: How would you buff the Ottomans economically if you were the developer?

Post by Abrahamburgerlincon »

Maybe they could give ottomans a logistician? They are the only euro civ without one and maybe it could be 1000 food, this would sacrifice aging fast if you choose to do this, and what it could do is make your unique mosque upgrades available in any age, and give a discount to the upgrades as well not sure how big the discount should be 40%? 50%? Maybe even 60%? Although 60 could be too strong so I’m leaning toward 50 or 40 percent
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Re: How would you buff the Ottomans economically if you were the developer?

Post by CR_Joops »

Abrahamburgerlincon wrote:Maybe they could give ottomans a logistician? They are the only euro civ without one and maybe it could be 1000 food, this would sacrifice aging fast if you choose to do this, and what it could do is make your unique mosque upgrades available in any age, and give a discount to the upgrades as well not sure how big the discount should be 40%? 50%? Maybe even 60%? Although 60 could be too strong so I’m leaning toward 50 or 40 percent
That's a good point. I didn't even realise they didn't have a 900f age up. Think basing it around the mosque would be a shout as it's a unique building.

The Ottos aren't a terrible civ though. They probably dont *need* balancing. Best way to balance Ottos is to remove the non-TP and water maps from QS.
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Re: How would you buff the Ottomans economically if you were the developer?

Post by look »

CR_Joops wrote:
Abrahamburgerlincon wrote:Maybe they could give ottomans a logistician? They are the only euro civ without one and maybe it could be 1000 food, this would sacrifice aging fast if you choose to do this, and what it could do is make your unique mosque upgrades available in any age, and give a discount to the upgrades as well not sure how big the discount should be 40%? 50%? Maybe even 60%? Although 60 could be too strong so I’m leaning toward 50 or 40 percent
That's a good point. I didn't even realise they didn't have a 900f age up. Think basing it around the mosque would be a shout as it's a unique building.

The Ottos aren't a terrible civ though. They probably dont *need* balancing. Best way to balance Ottos is to remove the non-TP and water maps from QS.
lol remove water maps have no sense..

but yeah.. QS have to be with only TP maps.
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