How Otto players can deal with this?

[Veer_84]

I recently played a match-up versus Japan as an Otto player. Completely destroyed his base but he simply spread his villagers all over the map and re-built his base again. I destroyed his town center twice. I thought he would resign but he didn't give up.

I was completely dominating the game for the first 40 minutes but then his superior economy took over and he destroyed me. Then I found a YouTube in which something similar happened.

It's a fantastic strategy for Japanese players to know how to survive the Ottoman rush but frustrating for an Otto player. Nothing seemed to work. Not even the Hussar raid.

The video is attached. I want to know how the Ottoman player could have played differently or how could he have coped with Japanese villagers scattered all over the map rebuilding their base?

[Miyawaki Sakura]

[/quote]

I’m just a noob player

I think if Japan plays perfectly, Ottoman can't win.

However, once the TC is destroyed, I think otto can win with better multitasking than the opponent because jap cannot obtain food without cherry

[Guigs]

@KINGofOsmane you tell him

[Veer_84]

I’m just a noob player

I think if Japan plays perfectly, Ottoman can't win.

However, once the TC is destroyed, I think otto can win with better multitasking than the opponent because jap cannot obtain food without cherry[/quote]

Thanks, very informative video. So you destroyed his base first and later on kept sieging his shrines. Interesting! The difference is that the Japanese player in the video was going Ashigaru. Whereas the player I was playing, was training Naginata Riders to constantly harass my vills.

[fei123456]

Age up when you take enough advantage.

[onfiregun17]

To quote directly from the Botto Guide:

Japan
Tower ff is quite hard to defend as japan, so you want to go for this most of the time. When there is a big stagecoach though, contain with jan/abus is a better option. FI revo is an option vs japan too, as well as the greedy ff.

spoiler

Also the video you link isn't very good as the skill level of the two people playing is about PR15. If you want a better Japan vs Otto video you can check this out.

[Veer_84]

To quote directly from the Botto Guide:

Japan
Tower ff is quite hard to defend as japan, so you want to go for this most of the time. When there is a big stagecoach though, contain with jan/abus is a better option. FI revo is an option vs japan too, as well as the greedy ff.

spoiler

Also the video you link isn't very good as the skill level of the two people playing is about PR15. If you want a better Japan vs Otto video you can check this out.

I'm at the same level (ELO 850-900 level) and struggle when I've destroyed Japan's base completely and yet they relocate and rebuild. Tower FF won't work in that case when the villagers have spread out all across the map.

Also, the video that you posted, there the Ottoman guy (Knuschlebar) loses to Hazza. So, its not much of a help either.

[bwinner]

Once I won 3-0 vs diarouga as otto vs jap, it didn't seem that difficult. It's important to place tower in base if you suspect any age 2 play (also do it if you didn't manage to get any information).

But in any case, if after destroying completely the base of a player you feel like in a bad position, it probably has nothing to do with the MU. You shall probably just are way too slow (coming from me, that means something). Just work on your apm, because you need to be more active on the map. Jap player can not afford to sack his base and be fine after 10min of game.

I didn't watch the video of knusch vs hazza, but if you can reproduce what knusch does, you would beat 99% of the players, even though it lost vs Hazza.

viewtopic.php?t=19909
Here is one example from my games otherwise.

[GettinBetter2]

nice video @Miyawaki Sakura ! So u let the cannons die to rescue ur army .... mostly that was my mistake! thx :)

[Veer_84]

But in any case, if after destroying completely the base of a player you feel like in a bad position, it probably has nothing to do with the MU. You shall probably just are way too slow (coming from me, that means something). Just work on your apm, because you need to be more active on the map. Jap player can not afford to sack his base and be fine after 10min of game.

You are probably right here. But still I struggle once the villagers scatter all across the map as the Jan/Abus combo is slow to catch up with. I've seen another video where Fitzbro came back after losing his initial base. That was also against an Ottoman player. So I'm not sure how should I deal with that?

I love your guide and enjoy watching your matches on You Tube.

[Veer_84]

I didn't watch the video of knusch vs hazza, but if you can reproduce what knusch does, you would beat 99% of the players, even though it lost vs Hazza.

I do appreciate your point of view that you can learn a lot from pro players. But that video is a classic example of why Japan could be a bad matchup for the Ottomans. Hazza completely owned Knusch.

[klonko]

But in any case, if after destroying completely the base of a player you feel like in a bad position, it probably has nothing to do with the MU. You shall probably just are way too slow (coming from me, that means something). Just work on your apm, because you need to be more active on the map. Jap player can not afford to sack his base and be fine after 10min of game.

You are probably right here. But still I struggle once the villagers scatter all across the map as the Jan/Abus combo is slow to catch up with. I've seen another video where Fitzbro came back after losing his initial base. That was also against an Ottoman player. So I'm not sure how should I deal with that?

I love your guide and enjoy watching your matches on You Tube.

Lakota is a really big unfavored matchup for Ottos. Also japan at lower elo is a terror to play against because they get so much bonus by playing passively. Like most house spamming civ. All you need to know is how to macro properly and you will win most of the time with japan at lower elo.

[_H2O]

In the video the person playing japan wasnt training villagers, didnt micro properly and could have bought food to call CM and save his tc. There is not much to say about matchups when the number of mistakes in even the 45 seconds from 5:45 to 6:30 of the video was so high.

I think the matchup is pretty good for otto overall.

[Mr_Bramboy]

Yep, H2O hits the nail on the head. I've always insisted that civ balance is completely irrelevant outside of the top 1% of players. A critical eye will be able to spot mistakes in every single game. Even in my top 50 games, civ balance is largely irrelevant due to the mistakes that the players make.

Blaming civ balance is easy to do. Blaming yourself for your mistakes is harder.

[fei123456]

That's not the case.
If player A wins player B in a match-up, player B usually didn't play perfectly. He may have made 3 mistakes, and you could easily say that these mistakes lead to a loss; but did player A played that well? Did he made 0 mistakes, played like a god, and deserve a victory? Nope, and he could have even made 10+ mistakes, but he doesn't care. That's not a fair MU then.
H2O and Samwise lose to piroshiki too, for not 1, not 2, but quite a few times. They may not played as a Pr40+ (2100+ elo now?) in those games, but did piroshiki perform that well?

[Astaroth]

Agree with @fei123456

If a MU is one-sided or if one civ is clearly stronger, one player will have a significantly higher chance of winning on average. Of course in an individual game, the result can just be based on major mistakes regardless of the imbalance.

The only situation in which balance really doesn't matter is if the advantage is exclusive to higher level players (eg if civ A has an edge over civ B only if its players is capable of pull tricking consistently).

[yurashic]

But in any case, if after destroying completely the base of a player you feel like in a bad position, it probably has nothing to do with the MU. You shall probably just are way too slow (coming from me, that means something). Just work on your apm, because you need to be more active on the map. Jap player can not afford to sack his base and be fine after 10min of game.

You are probably right here. But still I struggle once the villagers scatter all across the map as the Jan/Abus combo is slow to catch up with. I've seen another video where Fitzbro came back after losing his initial base. That was also against an Ottoman player. So I'm not sure how should I deal with that?

I love your guide and enjoy watching your matches on You Tube.

Overall Otto are probably the easiest civilization to beat by scattering all across the map as you say, just because their army is so immobile. I'd say if such situation occurs focus on cavalry and get the tp line.

[aligator92]

That's not the case.
If player A wins player B in a match-up, player B usually didn't play perfectly. He may have made 3 mistakes, and you could easily say that these mistakes lead to a loss; but did player A played that well? Did he made 0 mistakes, played like a god, and deserve a victory? Nope, and he could have even made 10+ mistakes, but he doesn't care. That's not a fair MU then.

I get what you are saying but I agree with Bramboy that up to and including say major (whatever ELO that equates to) people make soooo many small and big mistakes that they lead to vastly different results every game, overshadowing all the small imbalances in the matchup. It is usually not a case of 2 vs 3 mistakes but 20 to 30 mistakes. That is why we are not top players after all. I recently played the same guy twics as germany vs brit. I lost on the TP map and won on the no-TP map. I refuse to believe that the kind of balance issues we have matter on my level.

[_H2O]

The point is, I would rather be the otto player in this matchup at most skill levels. Even at the highest level I have a feeling I would still want to be the otto player.

[Xx_BOSS_XX]

The point is, I would rather be the otto player in this matchup at most skill levels. Even at the highest level I have a feeling I would still want to be the otto player.

srsly, on DE ?
especially on higher level at a certain point in the game, I feel like you are simply unable to outplay the other civ as otto

[abusjan]

Otto is garbage. It has no advantages other than a quick epoch, and the troop variety is low. Each military unit requires separate barracks to train. Workers who are free but twice as slow are not an advantage. The economy sucks and the soldiers are average.The weakest country I've ever seen. It should definitely be balanced.

[Astaroth]

Otto is garbage. It has no advantages other than a quick epoch, and the troop variety is low. Each military unit requires separate barracks to train. Workers who are free but twice as slow are not an advantage. The economy sucks and the soldiers are average.The weakest country I've ever seen. It should definitely be balanced.

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