Japan Semi-FF

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Canada dansil92
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Japan Semi-FF

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Post by dansil92 »

I've been away for a while from the ESOC, but I'm back and I'm bringing with me a new opening build order for Japan. It is more flexible than either a kami build or a torii build, and allows you to play japan much more like a standard euro civ or what we might consider more "typical" openings.
The Basics
The Build Order
Some Maths For Nerds
The Downsides
I'd love some feedback on this from some better-than-me players on this build, always looking to improve and refine it. @Squamiger was testing it out for me on twitch recently with some good success too.
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Ah also, don't quote me please, not meaning you but I'm generally not interested in arguing with cringe guys ty.
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Re: Japan Semi-FF

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Post by Squamiger »

follow me on twitch to watch me try out the top secret OP dansil strats #squantent

real talk tho, this strat is pretty nice because i hate managing shrines

here's my LOW attempts at it, the first game is bad and i do it wrong

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1034199849
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Re: Japan Semi-FF

Post by Astaroth »

Cool build, but sadly it seems a bit weak against typical builds people do vs Japan, such as hard rushes, contain with stage and some musks, pikes sieging shrines etc. Sure you won't have many shrines around to get sieged, but you also can't contest a stagecoach build properly etc.
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Re: Japan Semi-FF

Post by harcha »

Astaroth wrote:Cool build, but sadly it seems a bit weak against typical builds people do vs Japan, such as hard rushes, contain with stage and some musks, pikes sieging shrines etc. Sure you won't have many shrines around to get sieged, but you also can't contest a stagecoach build properly etc.
i'm thinking this has some potential against the strelet rush
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: Japan Semi-FF

Post by uberjz »

Played a cool game using a variant of this strat (instead of 600w I naked ff with 600c). Definitely seems like it could be fun against slower ff strats

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1037791000?t=1h12m15s
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[SP] t0xic gamer[JP] vs nerd cafe[SP] - Gran Chaco.age3yrec
ninjas and samurai. fun game
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Re: Japan Semi-FF

Post by Le Hussard sur le toit »

It's a nice BO but I have two issues with it :
1) Naginata are a very good unit, but don't they lose cav fights against hussars (at least in age 2) ? That would be a serious issue with any kind of cav-semi-ff play. Two batches of ashis may be just better at raiding than one batch of nagis too.

2) For a semi-FF, your xp curve seems a bit low. Your BO don't include a TP, don't use the torii... Since you use GFA I would try to make it work with the Spanish consulate (maybe send diplomatic intrigue in transition while switching to the Spanish consulate, send the xp and fast shipments upgrades upon aging, and just spam military shipments like you were Germany ?).
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Re: Japan Semi-FF

Post by harcha »

Le Hussard sur le toit wrote:It's a nice BO but I have two issues with it :
1) Naginata are a very good unit, but don't they lose cav fights against hussars (at least in age 2) ? That would be a serious issue with any kind of cav-semi-ff play. Two batches of ashis may be just better at raiding than one batch of nagis too.

2) For a semi-FF, your xp curve seems a bit low. Your BO don't include a TP, don't use the torii... Since you use GFA I would try to make it work with the Spanish consulate (maybe send diplomatic intrigue in transition while switching to the Spanish consulate, send the xp and fast shipments upgrades upon aging, and just spam military shipments like you were Germany ?).
1) Yes
2) It's true but Japan usually doesn't get any additional XP going into III other than making shrines. Spain relations would be a good adaptation.
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: Japan Semi-FF

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

Given the current state of public opinion this game does not need more semi-ffs ?
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Re: Japan Semi-FF

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Post by Le Hussard sur le toit »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:Given the current state of public opinion this game does not need more semi-ffs ?
I'm pretty sure the community would recognize any kind of Japanese semi-FF as better than yumi+walls.
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Re: Japan Semi-FF

Post by Le Hussard sur le toit »

harcha wrote:
Le Hussard sur le toit wrote:It's a nice BO but I have two issues with it :
1) Naginata are a very good unit, but don't they lose cav fights against hussars (at least in age 2) ? That would be a serious issue with any kind of cav-semi-ff play. Two batches of ashis may be just better at raiding than one batch of nagis too.

2) For a semi-FF, your xp curve seems a bit low. Your BO don't include a TP, don't use the torii... Since you use GFA I would try to make it work with the Spanish consulate (maybe send diplomatic intrigue in transition while switching to the Spanish consulate, send the xp and fast shipments upgrades upon aging, and just spam military shipments like you were Germany ?).
1) Yes
2) It's true but Japan usually doesn't get any additional XP going into III other than making shrines. Spain relations would be a good adaptation.
2) Well you need xp for a semi-FF, you don't need it for prolonged age 2 boom.
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Re: Japan Semi-FF

Post by dansil92 »

Le Hussard sur le toit wrote:It's a nice BO but I have two issues with it :
1) Naginata are a very good unit, but don't they lose cav fights against hussars (at least in age 2) ? That would be a serious issue with any kind of cav-semi-ff play. Two batches of ashis may be just better at raiding than one batch of nagis too.

2) For a semi-FF, your xp curve seems a bit low. Your BO don't include a TP, don't use the torii... Since you use GFA I would try to make it work with the Spanish consulate (maybe send diplomatic intrigue in transition while switching to the Spanish consulate, send the xp and fast shipments upgrades upon aging, and just spam military shipments like you were Germany ?).
1) Nagi do *slightly* lose to hussars so against what you can safely assume is a naked cav semi you can open barracks instead. If you want to cheese a bit against a cav semi you can train 5 samurai (same macro and cost as 5 nagi) and then into ashi or make 2 batches of ashi. Opening ashi instead lets you get a few market techs earlier.

2) You get the church xp trickle about 60 seconds into commerce age, and the bank grants 70xp upon building which fuels your early progression. I'm certain that there is potential to move over to the spanish consulate (as I mentioned) but my personal preference is simply to get the church, switch to japan and age with the shogunate for that large xp boost. All these xp spikes combined with the trickle compare favourably to a tradepost open. You don't have any xp penalty like germany so you can match fairly well in shipments. You're sort of roleplaying in between dutch, germany and france all at once.
turnuva wrote:
Ah also, don't quote me please, not meaning you but I'm generally not interested in arguing with cringe guys ty.
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Re: Japan Semi-FF

Post by lemmings121 »

actually sounds interesting, looks like it could fit in some optimization but you might have something here, i'm just afraid is too slow, but it has to be tested.

imo could be looking into adding a market asap somehow, as you have too much gold and all vills on berries. maybe a market first in transition, buy 100w, make both food upgrades asap, as start rax instead of stable for 2x5ashi is a better version.

i'm sure @harcha and other people who have more experience with the civ can think in better variations of the build
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Re: Japan Semi-FF

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Post by dansil92 »

lemmings121 wrote:actually sounds interesting, looks like it could fit in some optimization but you might have something here, i'm just afraid is too slow, but it has to be tested.

imo could be looking into adding a market asap somehow, as you have too much gold and all vills on berries. maybe a market first in transition, buy 100w, make both food upgrades asap, as start rax instead of stable for 2x5ashi is a better version.

i'm sure @harcha and other people who have more experience with the civ can think in better variations of the build
you know its funny, me and Squamiger actually had discussed that exact variation (market, buy 100w,get techs and ashi). It seems viable too, especially where infantry open is better

I've heard feedback from a tester as well that its perfect to hold the classic otto ff by just skipping units and aging then shipping yabusame (or in one instance, ninjas) to clean up the cannon and then just mass yumi. There's a lot of variety possible on this gfa-bank-4v open, which is unusual for japans usual rigid openings
turnuva wrote:
Ah also, don't quote me please, not meaning you but I'm generally not interested in arguing with cringe guys ty.
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Re: Japan Semi-FF

Post by thomasgreen6 »

I've seen a build similar to this in tournament finals before except you get 20 shrines + Toshogu and the bank. You just switch your 3rd/4th card for 400 export and delay the Japanese consulate or you don't go 300 export and go dutch for longer.
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Re: Japan Semi-FF

Post by Squamiger »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:Given the current state of public opinion this game does not need more semi-ffs ?
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Re: Japan Semi-FF

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Post by Squamiger »

Astaroth wrote:Cool build, but sadly it seems a bit weak against typical builds people do vs Japan, such as hard rushes, contain with stage and some musks, pikes sieging shrines etc. Sure you won't have many shrines around to get sieged, but you also can't contest a stagecoach build properly etc.
i played this build against an aztec rush too and won, but that might be because my opponent messed up. there was a point where he could have just right clicked my TC with 30 pikes and he didnt
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[SP] hidden_blaze[AZ] vs Cellar Door[JP] - Kamchatka.age3yrec
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Re: Japan Semi-FF

Post by Scylla-x »

I'd try this with tori gates instead of toshogu shrine, tori gates is worth more resources than toshogu in general it's the better age up.
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Re: Japan Semi-FF

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Scylla-x wrote:I'd try this with tori gates instead of toshogu shrine, tori gates is worth more resources than toshogu in general it's the better age up.
you know the tushogu gives you the 200 export for the bank and gives you 20 pop space and 35% shrine rate boost and gathers about 1.3 res per second instead of 200 wood and a single lonely useless unit, right?
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Ah also, don't quote me please, not meaning you but I'm generally not interested in arguing with cringe guys ty.
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Re: Japan Semi-FF

Post by harcha »

dansil92 wrote:35% shrine rate boost
Don't overestimate this, because it's tiny. It boosts the tiny autonomous shrine gather rate, not the animal gather rate. It's essentially 2 shrines + 200export, which is only situationally better than rax + samurai + xp boost.
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: Japan Semi-FF

Post by Astaroth »

Has anyone ever done the math on the torii gates? Like, how many extra shipments does it grant you over time on average, eg at minute 6, 8, 10, 12 or so?

I always feel there should be a decisive answer to the toshugo vs torii debate but curiously there isn't really. People only voice individual preference or obvious things like, go torii if you want a sieging samurai early or go toshugo if you need clubs for defense early.
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Re: Japan Semi-FF

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

Astaroth wrote:Has anyone ever done the math on the torii gates? Like, how many extra shipments does it grant you over time on average, eg at minute 6, 8, 10, 12 or so?

I always feel there should be a decisive answer to the toshugo vs torii debate but curiously there isn't really. People only voice individual preference or obvious things like, go torii if you want a sieging samurai early or go toshugo if you need clubs for defense early.
Yes.

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Re: Japan Semi-FF

Post by princeofcarthage »

Astaroth wrote:Has anyone ever done the math on the torii gates? Like, how many extra shipments does it grant you over time on average, eg at minute 6, 8, 10, 12 or so?

I always feel there should be a decisive answer to the toshugo vs torii debate but curiously there isn't really. People only voice individual preference or obvious things like, go torii if you want a sieging samurai early or go toshugo if you need clubs for defense early.
Cuz it really is an individual preference as to what strategy one wants to go for. Torri helps in being more aggressive as opposed toshogu. The 20 pop space is irrelevant cuz you anyways build atleast 5-6 shrines before age 2 which means you have enough pop space. Toshogu is good for defence and Torii is good for offence. This is/used to be a general rule of thumb and there might be few situational exceptions like deccan.
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Re: Japan Semi-FF

Post by dansil92 »

In this case the tushogu age up ends up being worth a lot of value because of the good faith build. You're turning your age 1 card (300 res) and your ageup ("400ish res") into an immediate bank wagon and 70 xp. The pop space is also saving you 250w immediately because you're not booming shrines - so you can immediately push out units without chopping all of age 1. Good faith also has other bonuses later on, but I like to think of it stacking as 300 res + 400 ageup res for the bank.

The passive shrine buff is fairly slow, (not super relevant immediately), but that's ok, the build focuses on avoiding chopping wood and having a villager and bank based eco for a long time, and treating it more like a euro civ. If you haven't given it a try yet I really do recommend giving it a shot
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Ah also, don't quote me please, not meaning you but I'm generally not interested in arguing with cringe guys ty.
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Re: Japan Semi-FF

Post by harcha »

Yeah Toshogu is necessary for this build because of the 200e.

Generally I don't think this build is too good because it relies on countering your opponents rush, and thus can be faked out. If your opponent makes fwd buildings, sees your bank and instead goes for map control, then you're SOL because he will deny your explorers shrining, thus stopping your boom right there. Then you're playing an up-hill game trying to ageup and push out with limited eco potential and no map control, which not only isn't strong, but also is susceptible to timing pushes.

Another thing I don't like about this build is that you're preserving your mines (which most DE maps have enough of) at the cost of consuming your berries much faster. There are already a couple of maps that give you less than 10k starting food (worst case you have 7k starting food) which means you're under pressure to spend a shipment on orchards sooner. With a normal Kami boom you can delay the orchard shipment with the use of shrines after you've finished setting up your infrastructure, but with this GFA-bank build you don't have infrastructure and desperately need to set shrines on wood to keep making housing and add military buildings. Because of the slower rollout of infrastructure your XP curve is also not good (I don't think the bank XP is enough to compensate for XP from a nice fat shrine boom).

Lastly I don't think this build is better than a Japan cons + 600w or late Japan cons + 300e opening anyway, as Japan consulate opening is very strong due to it's flexibility - you can spend the export on military rickshaw, on clubs or on shinobis, allbeit giving you less eco.
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: Japan Semi-FF

Post by dansil92 »

I feel like you're missing a bit of the point of how the build plays out, you're not countering a rush, you're putting early raiding pressure on and giving yourself more flexibility. There's room to skip units entirely and just age or to stay age 2 as long as you want. You're gonna add shrines as the game goes on but you're getting what is just slightly less than a kami boom's worth of eco much more immediately and at a much lower cost. The shrines are more of a bonus and less of a crutch that you're dependent on.

If you haven't actually played it out a few times, I really do suggest you give it a go, let it play out like france or germany and forget the house spam
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Ah also, don't quote me please, not meaning you but I'm generally not interested in arguing with cringe guys ty.

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