Japan Semi-FF

[harcha]

I played it out but it seemed so limited because even with no vils on coin i was struggling to get enough food for nagis and wood for housing. Also nagis are just terrible cav to fight cav with, which is the usual outcome when raiding. It's fun, but I don't see it being competitive.

[Scylla-x]

I'd try this with tori gates instead of toshogu shrine, tori gates is worth more resources than toshogu in general it's the better age up.

you know the tushogu gives you the 200 export for the bank and gives you 20 pop space and 35% shrine rate boost and gathers about 1.3 res per second instead of 200 wood and a single lonely useless unit, right?

As others have said the shrine boost is practically worthless if you do the math.

Maybe for this build you need that export asap then its better not sure tbh. You could still get a bank anyway with tori and just send 300 export for it, I don't know anything about your build so maybe thats not viable.

Tori is just far better than toshogu, and its exponential with your eco, more units you make, more vills you train is more xp, more units = more enemy units killed and even more xp and faster shipments is just more valuable. plus you still build shrines with tori, the gather rate difference is minimal without toshogu. I'd rather get the 4 vills out sooner than have more shrines.

Also the samurai is far from a useless unit, can send that to siege a tp, harass vills, stop cav etc and the military wagon is great, more vill seconds saved not having to build a barracks.

[dansil92]

"I don't know anything about your build so maybe thats not viable."



i personally disagree about the torii, i have always found those builds terribly one dimensional and very all in. The shrine boost is rather trivial, yes but the shrine itself gathering about 1 res per second, 1.3 with livestock is absolutely a good ageup bonus, especially alongside the other list of bonuses. torii inevitably locks you into a sort of aztec style of xp addiction and flopping hard if that unit shipment spam doesn't work. Never made it work and it really doesn't suit japans design imo

[harcha]

Yeah I'm also not a fan of Torii even tho it's been proven to not suck. Personally if I want to go aggressive, i'd rather do Japan cons with Toshogu.

[bremhoek]

I tried this build many times (knew this build from dansil92, before dansil92 placed it here. I used it a bit more flexible, so i choose per MU if I go nagi or ashi, and sometimes i skip the 2nd time 4 vill too save shipment for fortress. Then you end up in fortress quite early for japs and you can send 2 shipments, so thats strong.
Also i choose per match if i go Shogunate or golden pav with age up.

My conclusion?

I love the build, the early dutch cons + bank gives you good amount of coin very early. I can get out 5 nagi's in first batch. Just because the 4 vill from first shipment in colonial helps you to get them out in combi with bank + trickle and maybe treasures.
If you skip the 2nd time 4 vill and save for fortress (if you can) you have very quick a good mass in fortress.

In my opinion the build gives you a good start for early batches, gives you also good eco later because you have shrines + bank. Good faith helps you out with mil. wagon after you switched to jap cons and you have the 10 tech also for soon if you want that.
Against Dutch i won like all my matches with this build, i like it much against them (go yumi nagi or yumi yabasume).

So in general I love the build, it gives good tempo and is able to give you good mass early fortress.

Cons:

- age up is late
- weak against hard early rushes (azzy for example)
- danger to get popped soon if they start sieging your shrines early

Addition to cons: The cons are true, but you just must be wise when you use this build. Just dont use it if you expect to get rushed hard (so dont use it against azzy imo) but against some civs where you dont expect hard rush its just pretty good in my opinion. So my conclusion is the build is good, choose per match if you expect hard rush you if you use it or not, and be flexible for yourself with the build so you can adjust it to your situation (nagi or ashi opening, golden pav or shogunate, 2nd time 4 vill or skip it and save it for fortress etc.)

So if you are wise with when you use it it can be very good imo:)

[RefluxSemantic]

"I don't know anything about your build so maybe thats not viable."



i personally disagree about the torii, i have always found those builds terribly one dimensional and very all in. The shrine boost is rather trivial, yes but the shrine itself gathering about 1 res per second, 1.3 with livestock is absolutely a good ageup bonus, especially alongside the other list of bonuses. torii inevitably locks you into a sort of aztec style of xp addiction and flopping hard if that unit shipment spam doesn't work. Never made it work and it really doesn't suit japans design imo

20 pop space, ~2 vills and 200 export. Thats arguably the best age up deal in the game. 200 export alone is worth about half a shipment. Ive always found that the big shrine is best because of the immediate benefits you get.

[RefluxSemantic]

I have a question: why do a semi-FF with this build? Its only a generic eco opening that can be any sort of build, isnt it?

[dansil92]

I have a question: why do a semi-FF with this build? Its only a generic eco opening that can be any sort of build, isnt it?

i mean truthfully yes its aimed at doing anything. extended age 2, ff, semi ff, fast industrial. Its just able to semi ff, something other japan builds can't really do without tanking eco

[RefluxSemantic]

I have a question: why do a semi-FF with this build? Its only a generic eco opening that can be any sort of build, isnt it?

i mean truthfully yes its aimed at doing anything. extended age 2, ff, semi ff, fast industrial. Its just able to semi ff, something other japan builds can't really do without tanking eco

I think there are more problems with semi-ff that you still dont quite solve, I think the bit about maths for nerds is the most interesting, where you make the reasonable claim that this build is a more efficient way to boom.

[dansil92]

I have a question: why do a semi-FF with this build? Its only a generic eco opening that can be any sort of build, isnt it?

i mean truthfully yes its aimed at doing anything. extended age 2, ff, semi ff, fast industrial. Its just able to semi ff, something other japan builds can't really do without tanking eco

I think there are more problems with semi-ff that you still dont quite solve, I think the bit about maths for nerds is the most interesting, where you make the reasonable claim that this build is a more efficient way to boom.

i do agree a tp would be huge for this build
for a really effective semi ff and i still haven't worked out an efficient way to get one consistently. there's a chance that maybe buying 200w every game is ideal by exploiting the bank income, idk for sure. the church + aging with the shogunate compensates to some extent. One of the people I had testing it (bremhoek, above) did a japan mirror with this build vs a kami boom and had more res the entire game. Very interesting results, it even surprised me tbh

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

It's a nice BO but I have two issues with it :
1) Naginata are a very good unit, but don't they lose cav fights against hussars (at least in age 2) ? That would be a serious issue with any kind of cav-semi-ff play. Two batches of ashis may be just better at raiding than one batch of nagis too.

2) For a semi-FF, your xp curve seems a bit low. Your BO don't include a TP, don't use the torii... Since you use GFA I would try to make it work with the Spanish consulate (maybe send diplomatic intrigue in transition while switching to the Spanish consulate, send the xp and fast shipments upgrades upon aging, and just spam military shipments like you were Germany ?).

1) Nagi do *slightly* lose to hussars so against what you can safely assume is a naked cav semi you can open barracks instead. If you want to cheese a bit against a cav semi you can train 5 samurai (same macro and cost as 5 nagi) and then into ashi or make 2 batches of ashi. Opening ashi instead lets you get a few market techs earlier.

2) You get the church xp trickle about 60 seconds into commerce age, and the bank grants 70xp upon building which fuels your early progression. I'm certain that there is potential to move over to the spanish consulate (as I mentioned) but my personal preference is simply to get the church, switch to japan and age with the shogunate for that large xp boost. All these xp spikes combined with the trickle compare favourably to a tradepost open. You don't have any xp penalty like germany so you can match fairly well in shipments. You're sort of roleplaying in between dutch, germany and france all at once.

The main point of going Spanish consulate (in transition to age 3) is not only the increase xp curve, but the merchant marine upgrades that makes your shipment arrives twice as fast, which gives you a lot of dynamism when you are stacking shipments (if you reach age 3 with two shipments stacked, you can for example get 5 nagis and 2 FA arriving at 20s interval instead of 40s to clean up the opponent timing - it really makes a bit timing difference.

Lets compute the exports costs. You need 100+360 for Dutch consulate+bank+church, while you get 200 from Toshogu shrine. So switching consulate probably does not work unless you send diplomatic intrigue - then you get 500 export and need 460+25+90=575 so you can easily afford everything in time. I really think it is worth exploring by someone better than me.

[dansil92]

It's a nice BO but I have two issues with it :
1) Naginata are a very good unit, but don't they lose cav fights against hussars (at least in age 2) ? That would be a serious issue with any kind of cav-semi-ff play. Two batches of ashis may be just better at raiding than one batch of nagis too.

2) For a semi-FF, your xp curve seems a bit low. Your BO don't include a TP, don't use the torii... Since you use GFA I would try to make it work with the Spanish consulate (maybe send diplomatic intrigue in transition while switching to the Spanish consulate, send the xp and fast shipments upgrades upon aging, and just spam military shipments like you were Germany ?).

1) Nagi do *slightly* lose to hussars so against what you can safely assume is a naked cav semi you can open barracks instead. If you want to cheese a bit against a cav semi you can train 5 samurai (same macro and cost as 5 nagi) and then into ashi or make 2 batches of ashi. Opening ashi instead lets you get a few market techs earlier.

2) You get the church xp trickle about 60 seconds into commerce age, and the bank grants 70xp upon building which fuels your early progression. I'm certain that there is potential to move over to the spanish consulate (as I mentioned) but my personal preference is simply to get the church, switch to japan and age with the shogunate for that large xp boost. All these xp spikes combined with the trickle compare favourably to a tradepost open. You don't have any xp penalty like germany so you can match fairly well in shipments. You're sort of roleplaying in between dutch, germany and france all at once.

The main point of going Spanish consulate (in transition to age 3) is not only the increase xp curve, but the merchant marine upgrades that makes your shipment arrives twice as fast, which gives you a lot of dynamism when you are stacking shipments (if you reach age 3 with two shipments stacked, you can for example get 5 nagis and 2 FA arriving at 20s interval instead of 40s to clean up the opponent timing - it really makes a bit timing difference.

Lets compute the exports costs. You need 100+360 for Dutch consulate+bank+church, while you get 200 from Toshogu shrine. So switching consulate probably does not work unless you send diplomatic intrigue - then you get 500 export and need 460+25+90=575 so you can easily afford everything in time. I really think it is worth exploring by someone better than me.

now this could be interesting, but you'd be spending a shipment (300 export) to get more shipments. I love merchant marine, its one of the best consulate techs, but I'm not exactly certain how great it would be. perhaps skipping the church instead? the spain cons bonus is about the same xp rate as the church

[RefluxSemantic]

My first intuition was also to abuse GFA more. Right now you're kinda shipping gfa to get a small discount on the bank wagon. That doesnt seem that great actually. (Its confusing me that you get good results eco wise, Ive always wondered if shrine booming is simply not that good)

[harcha]

Shrine gather rate certainly pales in comparison to mannors or torps or kanchas or banks, but if you're going with ports consulate and kami, they are very cheap and easy to place. The advantages of shrines don't end with gather rate - they give very valuable LOS and deny resources for the opponent, not mentioning the macro flexibility to set whichever resource you want.

In a strictly economic sense shrine boom can be compared to a limited water boom as the costs and gather rate are similar.

[aaryngend]

Shrine gather rate certainly pales in comparison to mannors or torps or kanchas or banks, but if you're going with ports consulate and kami, they are very cheap and easy to place.

?
Since when do Manor houses gather anything They spawn a settler and that's it.

[Astaroth]

He just meant that in terms of resource gathering, shrines are not as good as manors, which spawn settlers that gather res (more than shrines do). Ofc shrines have other advantages over settlers, such as not being as raidable and not using up hunt.

[harcha]

Shrine gather rate certainly pales in comparison to mannors or torps or kanchas or banks, but if you're going with ports consulate and kami, they are very cheap and easy to place.

?
Since when do Manor houses gather anything They spawn a settler and that's it.

What I mean to say is that shrine boom is not the biggest boom, but it is probably the easiest, also one of the safer and faster booms.

[RefluxSemantic]

Shrine gather rate certainly pales in comparison to mannors or torps or kanchas or banks, but if you're going with ports consulate and kami, they are very cheap and easy to place.

?
Since when do Manor houses gather anything They spawn a settler and that's it.

What I mean to say is that shrine boom is not the biggest boom, but it is probably the easiest, also one of the safer and faster booms.

To some extend its not very safe. In some match ups your shit just get sieged down

[dansil92]

My first intuition was also to abuse GFA more. Right now you're kinda shipping gfa to get a small discount on the bank wagon. That doesnt seem that great actually. (Its confusing me that you get good results eco wise, Ive always wondered if shrine booming is simply not that good)

shrine booming even with kami-ports is about 1700w for 11 or 12 vills i think? Its really nothing special, people overrate japan's eco all the time- and unlike brits you lose that eco when they get sieged down.

I tend to wait on grabbing the arsenal from the cons as well (180 export) before swapping to japan so i can get breastplate and cuirass, occasionally socket bayonet, and then japan for bushido/military wagon/fast training yamabushi. I do think you are locked into sending 300 export if you want to do much else, like merchant marine or nanban or whatever, but it likely is a solid option if you can spare the shipment. It wouldn't blend well with a 7 lucky gods build though, that's dependent on kami

[harcha]

Show hidden quotes

Shrine gather rate certainly pales in comparison to mannors or torps or kanchas or banks, but if you're going with ports consulate and kami, they are very cheap and easy to place.

?
Since when do Manor houses gather anything They spawn a settler and that's it.

What I mean to say is that shrine boom is not the biggest boom, but it is probably the easiest, also one of the safer and faster booms.

To some extend its not very safe. In some match ups your shit just get sieged down

in some matchups you just don't boom

[Scylla-x]

i personally disagree about the torii, i have always found those builds terribly one dimensional and very all in. The shrine boost is rather trivial, yes but the shrine itself gathering about 1 res per second, 1.3 with livestock is absolutely a good ageup bonus, especially alongside the other list of bonuses. torii inevitably locks you into a sort of aztec style of xp addiction and flopping hard if that unit shipment spam doesn't work. Never made it work and it really doesn't suit japans design imo

hmm not sure, the tori xp boost is very different to aztec in that you don't need to kill or siege buildings for xp, you get xp for villagers built, units produced, buildings etc etc it gets better the more you boom, not just by being aggressive.
Extra shipments from tori can allow you to just go more eco and send 4/7 vill shipments. just 1 extra shipment earned from tori and used for 4 vill card, way outproduces the toshogu shrine. I'd say the only reason to ever use toshogu is if you desperately need that export, but I'd still rather go tori and send 300 export.

[dansil92]

i personally disagree about the torii, i have always found those builds terribly one dimensional and very all in. The shrine boost is rather trivial, yes but the shrine itself gathering about 1 res per second, 1.3 with livestock is absolutely a good ageup bonus, especially alongside the other list of bonuses. torii inevitably locks you into a sort of aztec style of xp addiction and flopping hard if that unit shipment spam doesn't work. Never made it work and it really doesn't suit japans design imo

hmm not sure, the tori xp boost is very different to aztec in that you don't need to kill or siege buildings for xp, you get xp for villagers built, units produced, buildings etc etc it gets better the more you boom, not just by being aggressive.
Extra shipments from tori can allow you to just go more eco and send 4/7 vill shipments. just 1 extra shipment earned from tori and used for 4 vill card, way outproduces the toshogu shrine. I'd say the only reason to ever use toshogu is if you desperately need that export, but I'd still rather go tori and send 300 export.

all the high level players above agree with me, torii is trash. it's really not that good and theres a reason you dont see it in tournament play. an extra shipment at 9 min is not a huge deal when you're throwing away export, pop space, eco in exchange for what is, at best, probably somewhere between 600 and 700 res at 9 or 10 min when your shipment progression finally catches up with a shrine boom

[Scylla-x]

all the high level players above agree with me, torii is trash. it's really not that good and theres a reason you dont see it in tournament play. an extra shipment at 9 min is not a huge deal when you're throwing away export, pop space, eco in exchange for what is, at best, probably somewhere between 600 and 700 res at 9 or 10 min when your shipment progression finally catches up with a shrine boom

I think earlier someone linked to the numbers between toshogu and tori and tori was worth significantly more resources than toshogu.

Toshogu provides 20 pop, tori provides a military wagon, not much difference in res, the wagon saves you villager seconds. You still build shrines even when you go tori, its not like shrines are built just when you go toshogu.(toshogu makes a tiny difference to shrine res generation)

Just based on constant vill and x5 ashi production, the tori gets you 9 shipments when toshogu 7, if you send 4 vills twice(or imagine 7 if in fortress), thats way more eco and value than toshogu with 20 shrines. That is with both the same build, imagine tori gates going aggressive as well with constant 1.6x xp from kills, it would equate to far more shipments, as happens with the aztec warchief which is 2x but only within his aura, whilst tori is 1.6x on everything anywhere. I am struggling to understand how Toshogu is even close.

anyway i think we will agree to disagree

[dansil92]

all the high level players above agree with me, torii is trash. it's really not that good and theres a reason you dont see it in tournament play. an extra shipment at 9 min is not a huge deal when you're throwing away export, pop space, eco in exchange for what is, at best, probably somewhere between 600 and 700 res at 9 or 10 min when your shipment progression finally catches up with a shrine boom

I think earlier someone linked to the numbers between toshogu and tori and tori was worth significantly more resources than toshogu.

Toshogu provides 20 pop, tori provides a military wagon, not much difference in res, the wagon saves you villager seconds. You still build shrines even when you go tori, its not like shrines are built just when you go toshogu.(toshogu makes a tiny difference to shrine res generation)

Just based on constant vill and x5 ashi production, the tori gets you 9 shipments when toshogu 7, if you send 4 vills twice(or imagine 7 if in fortress), thats way more eco and value than toshogu with 20 shrines. That is with both the same build, imagine tori gates going aggressive as well with constant 1.6x xp from kills, it would equate to far more shipments, as happens with the aztec warchief which is 2x but only within his aura, whilst tori is 1.6x on everything anywhere. I am struggling to understand how Toshogu is even close.

anyway i think we will agree to disagree

Which is largely why I am advocating for a build where 4v is the first age 2 shipment, instead of 600w (which is the first shipment in every other japan build i am familiar with). While I see mathematical merit in the torii, my experience with it has been one continuous disappointment - indeed it was the catalyst for me attempting to develop new non-kami eco builds. Japan is a very complex civ, so I think the opportunity for diverse openings is definitely there.

An obsession with shrines probably my biggest grievance with the japan meta, they're just really not that great. With llamas on every single one, with kami, tushogu, and the age 4 tech (that i dont think I've ever consciously noted the name of) I believe its somewhere around 21 vills total resource potential, if my math from 2018 is still accurate on de

[Plantinator]

Well lets be honest shrines seemed a lot better when torps werent around