Japan Semi-FF

[dansil92]

Well lets be honest shrines seemed a lot better when torps werent around

i hate swedens design so much

[Plantinator]

I actually really like the concept of torps but it might still be to strong. Maybe nerf torp build limit?

[helln00]

I actually really like the concept of torps but it might still be to strong. Maybe nerf torp build limit?

I think it might be better to cap build limit with age, maybe only 5-7 torps in age 2.

[n0el]

So you can only get 80 pop in age 2? Torps are fine now honestly, the only issue with sweden is they basically rely entirely on getting to age 4 and getting svea lifeguard which is insane

[helln00]

I am entirely flexible on what that number might be, 10 might work as well, but I do think that considering they are meant to be a more short term source of income compared to shrines, capping their maximum output is a good way of balancing it.

Or better yet, maybe make it like otto, make it a cheap-ish church tech.

And since long term they do seem a bit crap, I dont think you want to just reduce their overall build limit like with inca either.

[lemmings121]

So you can only get 80 pop in age 2? Torps are fine now honestly, the only issue with sweden is they basically rely entirely on getting to age 4 and getting svea lifeguard which is insane

torps arent fine at all, but I guess its too late to ask for a civ redesign.

[Plantinator]

My suggestion would be 15 torps each giving 12 Pop so u have a max of 190 in age 2 (which rarely mattes tbh).
Then prob change dominions which is just a useless card right now so that it doesnt give extra hp but 5 Wagons (which is still not even 700 res for age 3 shipment) and increase build limit to 16.

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

A possibility would be to make their mercs cost half gold, half food. That would solve their composition issues and they could be balanced around that.

[kevthegooner]

Against Dutch i won like all my matches with this build, i like it much against them (go yumi nagi or yumi yabasume).

Yeah, when I read Dansil's initial post I thought, "Oh, this is the anti-Dutch BO." I will give it a try!

[kevthegooner]

I have played this build order several times now, and here is what I like about it: flexibility and unpredictability. I have found too many Japan BOs to be easy to counter. Shrine boom? Build pikes. Ashi spam? Spam anti-infantry. I know that a lot of that is due to my limited abilities (~1100 ELO) but I often felt sort of "locked" in with other BOs.

This BO also offers some unpredictability. Opening with Nagis then switching to yumi/yabu feels like great tempo.

Thanks Dansil! Keep those wacky BOs coming!

[dansil92]

I have played this build order several times now, and here is what I like about it: flexibility and unpredictability. I have found too many Japan BOs to be easy to counter. Shrine boom? Build pikes. Ashi spam? Spam anti-infantry. I know that a lot of that is due to my limited abilities (~1100 ELO) but I often felt sort of "locked" in with other BOs.

This BO also offers some unpredictability. Opening with Nagis then switching to yumi/yabu feels like great tempo.

Thanks Dansil! Keep those wacky BOs coming!

thank you for the feedback! I have been appreciating the flexibility too, I might have some small tweaks or variations to the build order that gets a significantly faster ageup, though it does kill the possibility of opening nagi. Still testing it out though. In any case, I love having strong eco right away and getting some momentum immediately into age 2. Keep me posted if you find any improvements to the build :)

[hastina]

Why not have it all? A faster age up, A shrine boom, Early bank, church and all Spanish tech? I out boomed and out massed all my opponents with GFA + Toshugu by doing the following
2 shrines with starting wood, with a juicy wood treasure, a third shrine. Helps in aging up faster as you have 2-3 shrines instead of just 1.
card 1 - Good Faith Agreements
Age up with 4 vills, Except for 6 vills on Food, rest on wood and shrines on wood. Build a consulate with 200w during transition to age 2.
card 2 - Send 4 shrine wagons (600w value, gets built without monk idle time who can get more treasures)
Build a barrack, a stable, a market - get each market tech one by one, Q Yumi and Nagi and finish batches as you get resources.
card 3 - Send 4 shrine wagons a second time (600w value)
card 4 - 300 export as 4th card, send Church and switch to Spain to finish Nanban trade (crates contain 25% more res) and merchant marine (shipments come fast)
stay on Spanish consulate for XP trickle.
card 5 - 600 wood (but 750 as Nanban trade is already done) Finish rest of the shrines. Switch card 5 with 6 if age up is a priority.
card 6 - 600 coin (but 750 now) AGE UP or more units. Mix in Ashigaru, Shrines on food. If you a lot of Yumi massed already.
card 7 - 600 wood (but 750 now) more yumi
card 8 - cherry orchards
card 9 - 600 coin (but 750 now) doesn't matter if you age or not as you have a mass, would have won all fights in age 2 and have resources left over as the boom is in full swing but age up if opponent ages up.
card 10 - Heavenly kami as you have all the shrines now, better get more trickle from them.
Shogunate for XP + daimyo and cheaper units
In age 3, bullionism for 1-2 more shipments and switch to Japanese consulate for passive attack boost and units.
Shrine on coin to get merchantilsim from Church for more shipments. Send unit upgrade cards are more units.

[onfiregun17]

Too lazy to do math but you're much better off doing a kami shrine boom for eco. Like why send GFA as your first card and then not use your consulate techs until 8+ minutes?

[dansil92]

Too lazy to do math but you're much better off doing a kami shrine boom for eco. Like why send GFA as your first card and then not use your consulate techs until 8+ minutes?

you're replying to the above post and not the original post, I assume?

[hastina]

Too lazy to do math but you're much better off doing a kami shrine boom for eco. Like why send GFA as your first card and then not use your consulate techs until 8+ minutes?

You get the bank right away around 5th min, also you get the church which gives 0.7xp trickle as soon as you get 90 more export accrued and then you switch to spain consulate and stay there until age 3.

Kami shrine boom is one dimensional, see original post. You spend a lot of wood and have to commit to it, GFA with Dutch consulate gives you more flexibility. My comment above modifies it a bit to also do a shrine boom but not with kami+ports, but with shrine wagons.

[Challenger_Marco]

Why not have it all? A faster age up, A shrine boom, Early bank, church and all Spanish tech? I out boomed and out massed all my opponents with GFA + Toshugu by doing the following
2 shrines with starting wood, with a juicy wood treasure, a third shrine. Helps in aging up faster as you have 2-3 shrines instead of just 1.
Japan can't have all ,going cons boom ,eco boom and also having units?? also you have to choose either 1

card 1 - Good Faith Agreements
What is the point of early bank if you use the GFA on an economic unit?? unless you are playing a NR 10 ,you have to spend the export on useful techs/units.

Age up with 4 vills, Except for 6 vills on Food, rest on wood and shrines on wood. Build a consulate with 200w during transition to age 2.
card 2 - Send 4 shrine wagons (600w value, gets built without monk idle time who can get more treasures)

Japan age up time is slow and assuming you age around 4:30-5:00 mins most of the treasures is gone anyways ,you have to consider the walking time of the wagon while monks are just better which can be used to place shrine wherever around the map instantly and deny enemy hunts

Build a barrack, a stable, a market - get each market tech one by one, Q Yumi and Nagi and finish batches as you get resources.
This is will be too late since you have to chop it ,becomes too costly ,600w is better

card 3 - Send 4 shrine wagons a second time (600w value)

Kami+Ports cons makes shrine cost 75w so 4 shrine wagons it not actually worth 600w ,it's (4x75)300w which is pretty trash ,this is the reason why no one uses this card ,which makes 600w a lot better & flexible option.

card 4 - 300 export as 4th card, send Church and switch to Spain to finish Nanban trade (crates contain 25% more res) and merchant marine (shipments come fast)
stay on Spanish consulate for XP trickle.
Again a shipment used for making crates worth 25% more it's not worth it at this point it could easily been a 600w/4v with std build
card 5 - 600 wood (but 750 as Nanban trade is already done) Finish rest of the shrines. Switch card 5 with 6 if age up is a priority.
5th card would be an easy 600g here and now you are sending this to invest on your infrastucutre
card 6 - 600 coin (but 750 now) AGE UP or more units. Mix in Ashigaru, Shrines on food. If you a lot of Yumi massed already.
card 7 - 600 wood (but 750 now) more yumi
card 8 - cherry orchards
card 9 - 600 coin (but 750 now) doesn't matter if you age or not as you have a mass, would have won all fights in age 2 and have resources left over as the boom is in full swing but age up if opponent ages up.
card 10 - Heavenly kami as you have all the shrines now, better get more trickle from them.
Shogunate for XP + daimyo and cheaper units
In age 3, bullionism for 1-2 more shipments and switch to Japanese consulate for passive attack boost and units.
Shrine on coin to get merchantilsim from Church for more shipments. Send unit upgrade cards are more units.

Overall the build you do is just too slow (you shud use Seven lucky gods to compensate the fact you spent too much cards on others for this to work good) ,I'm pretty sure i can outboom this using std japan BO.

[onfiregun17]

Too lazy to do math but you're much better off doing a kami shrine boom for eco. Like why send GFA as your first card and then not use your consulate techs until 8+ minutes?

you're replying to the above post and not the original post, I assume?

correct

[chris1089]

Trying this openig live now:
twitch.tv/UnpredictableLogician

[harcha]

@hastina did you assume shrines cost 150w?

[Garja]

Just 600g 600g naked FF

[gibson]

Don't 600g 600g lol.

[Hazza54321]

Hahaha

[hastina]

@hastina did you assume shrines cost 150w?

My bad, but I made this.

[harcha]

@hastina did you assume shrines cost 150w?

My bad, but I made this.

the idea of comparison is good but you're comparing yourself to someone much worse so it was pointless. so i'm still waiting to see if there is any merit to this. but it honestly sounds much less flexible than any standard build

[dansil92]

Don't 600g 600g lol.

correct, you should go 300c 600c