Introducing the Rapid-Fire MU of the Week: China vs. Haudenosaunee

[Squamiger]

Based on some conversations and high level math in this thread,, we've determined that there are 210 possible civ matchups currently in DE with more to potentially come as a result of new civs. I have missed the old MU of the Month threads from legacy, so I wanted to start something similar. But the only way we are going to get through these MUs in a reasonable amount of time (and before the devs shake everything up with a patch) is by doing this on an expedited timeframe. The other thing I've noticed is that even when there were MU of the Month threads, most answers in the threads came within a few days of the thread being posted-- they were really matchups of the week, with large lulls in between. So instead, I give you, the MU of the Month Week!

You can find all the old MUs here

I've decided to just go ahead and try out a casual, low-stakes MU of the Week threads. There aren't necessarily going to be casted games featuring the civs, unless someone wants to take that on. I think instead, what would be cool is if community members might deign to upload a twitch stream or recorded game of yourself attempting the matchup at some time during the featured week-- if not, that's fine too. Primarily, this thread is meant to be a place to discuss the meta around all the new civs and changes in DE.

The way I'm going to select civs is with a random number generator in Excel. This week's matchup is....

China vs. Haudenosaunee

vs.

What is the meta between these two civs currently?
What is Haud's goal in this MU, and what is China's goal?
Which civ is favored, and which civ is at a disadvantage?
What maps favor which civ?
How does this MU now compare to when we asked this question back in 2018?

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

This is a nice MU to start with. Current China should be better than 2018 China ?

[Garja]

Yes current China is definetely better than 2018 China.

With old China:
- Iro FF, semi FF and similar should not be enough to beat China FF (can occasionally win if something goes in favor of Iro like big treasures or map). Maybe super greedy Iro (semi)FF beat a standard China FF, but China can FI in that case
- Iro fast age rush (standard procedure: 4kanya runby while massing infantry -> right click before 7 min -> eventually overhelm) gives very high chances of win to Iro regardless of what China does

With new China:
- Iro FF and such still don't cut it
- Iro rush also doesn't cut it because of the new age2 options for China

Idk about FIs but I just assume it plays just like the FF vs FF.

[Squamiger]

so what should Iro do then? is it really that lopsided?

[Mitoe]

I remember back on EP I had a lot of success with Haudenosaunee doing an FF or Semi-FF into double warhut Tomahawk/Forest Prowler (ship 8 FP and 9 toma and get BBs, follow up with infantry combat) and just use the FP to zone away his army and harass vills while the toma siege the wonder.

But Idk if it it would work with the buffs to China. Maybe? I guess Haud get free Placer Mines now which I didn't used to get on EP until later.

[Squamiger]

free placer mines, plus the 3 vill + warhut age up is also new on DE. I feel like haud can have a really strong early-mid eco especially if you dock start. you have have 30-ish vills while you opponent has 21-22, without doing anything except dock start + 3 vill age up + 5 vill shipment.

[Kawapasaka]

Iro is super versatile so there's a lot of decent ways to play this
- If they have a mid-map TP Iro can big button siege it and fortress themselves so just 5v mixed crates. This kinda requires a great start and treasures to be smooth though since you age a bit after the crates hit the floor otherwise.
- If it's an in-base TP or no TP going for a 10 toma 4 kanya semi is a nice adaptable opener - 5v 4 kanya mixed crates. Ship back to back unit shipments instead of crates if they're playing age 2. If possible be conservative with the kanya so you can save them for an early vet + 6 kanya timing. If you're positive they're playing age 2 and you have a reasonably defensible TP you can also do this build defensively with your warhut in base and age right after 4 kanya. Don't over-commit to defending your TP if they're shipping a lot of units.
- Stagecoach builds can be a bit vulnerable to the new blockhouse builds because of the siege and mobility of the early steppe mass but can still work. Against a FF you should either ship units right after 600w and flood their base or age yourself ASAP. Pure unit shipments after 600w also works to defend against age 2 play.
- The dock start is always good when water is close to your base, you can stay at 4 boats, TP + market in transition and play normally or keep training boats in age 2 for a while. I'm pretty sure Iro is fast enough that they can semi with a decently high boat count and still punish a FI.
- Mixing it up with a fast age rush now and then is fine too, doesn't hurt to be less predictable.

As usual with China you generally want to find a way to survive until you hit your 12 minute redcoat timing then force a fight. I think there's 2 cases where age 2 play is probably better than FFing, which is against stagecoach builds on big TP line maps or greedier water play.
- For age 2 play, the closer the thing you want to siege is (TP or dock, generally) the better shipping units rather than 700w first is. 7 steppe first is the most adaptable (just not against a toma + 4 kanya rush) since you can use the mobility to switch between sieging the dock, TP, exposed house, etc.
- Otherwise you can FF. You should be able to 700c first against anything but a fast age rush. Always confucian against a forward warhut, skip 700w to time 9 pikes with your age-up if you need to defend. You can also use this aggressively but probably only worth it if you can siege more than just the forward warhut (IE TPs).
- Either TP+village or double village start but don't chop for anything in transition if FFing. It's slow and bad. You don't really need a TP to FF, if it's a high treasure or livestock map double village is better since you can get your explorer out on the map straight away. And it's faster to age with the extra vill and 180w villages.
- Against a defensive warhut you can age tower. Shipping 1kc then iron troops while massing cav is a nice middle ground of greed without committing to a FI.
- Against fast age rush, gather for MM and ship units until you have a window to ship coin and age. Never ship CM, it's worthless against Iro.

[callentournies]

Iro is super versatile so there's a lot of decent ways to play this
- If they have a mid-map TP Iro can big button siege it and fortress themselves so just 5v mixed crates. This kinda requires a great start and treasures to be smooth though since you age a bit after the crates hit the floor otherwise.
- If it's an in-base TP or no TP going for a 10 toma 4 kanya semi is a nice adaptable opener - 5v 4 kanya mixed crates. Ship back to back unit shipments instead of crates if they're playing age 2. If possible be conservative with the kanya so you can save them for an early vet + 6 kanya timing. If you're positive they're playing age 2 and you have a reasonably defensible TP you can also do this build defensively with your warhut in base and age right after 4 kanya. Don't over-commit to defending your TP if they're shipping a lot of units.
- Stagecoach builds can be a bit vulnerable to the new blockhouse builds because of the siege and mobility of the early steppe mass but can still work. Against a FF you should either ship units right after 600w and flood their base or age yourself ASAP. Pure unit shipments after 600w also works to defend against age 2 play.
- The dock start is always good when water is close to your base, you can stay at 4 boats, TP + market in transition and play normally or keep training boats in age 2 for a while. I'm pretty sure Iro is fast enough that they can semi with a decently high boat count and still punish a FI.
- Mixing it up with a fast age rush now and then is fine too, doesn't hurt to be less predictable.

As usual with China you generally want to find a way to survive until you hit your 12 minute redcoat timing then force a fight. I think there's 2 cases where age 2 play is probably better than FFing, which is against stagecoach builds on big TP line maps or greedier water play.
- For age 2 play, the closer the thing you want to siege is (TP or dock, generally) the better shipping units rather than 700w first is. 7 steppe first is the most adaptable (just not against a toma + 4 kanya rush) since you can use the mobility to switch between sieging the dock, TP, exposed house, etc.
- Otherwise you can FF. You should be able to 700c first against anything but a fast age rush. Always confucian against a forward warhut, skip 700w to time 9 pikes with your age-up if you need to defend. You can also use this aggressively but probably only worth it if you can siege more than just the forward warhut (IE TPs).
- Either TP+village or double village start but don't chop for anything in transition if FFing. It's slow and bad. You don't really need a TP to FF, if it's a high treasure or livestock map double village is better since you can get your explorer out on the map straight away. And it's faster to age with the extra vill and 180w villages.
- Against a defensive warhut you can age tower. Shipping 1kc then iron troops while massing cav is a nice middle ground of greed without committing to a FI.
- Against fast age rush, gather for MM and ship units until you have a window to ship coin and age. Never ship CM, it's worthless against Iro.

this is super cringe for some kid who only spammed china on EP and never got above 1300 Elo

[Kawapasaka]

checked that stove tho

[fei123456]

Now that China colonial age 2 is insanely buffed, it's a China favored MU now. A simple colonial rush won't work at all, and Haud may even lose to Chinese before 10:00 if they play carelessly. Haud units are slightly better in late colonial, but China has already reached fortress easily.

[Kaiserklein]

Not the best gameplay probably but still relevant, we played the MU twice

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1459965345?t=45m

[Squamiger]

I feel like I've had luck with haud against China by using small strategic wall segments, to prevent my army from getting surrounded by the melee cav and melee infantry in age 3. I think this works since haud has stronger ranged units (fp and mr) but weaker units to body block (kanya and tomas). I wonder if the key to beating china with haud is trying to bait them into a fight like the one you almost took, Kaiser, where your cav were just getting stuck. wall segments used well might enable this