Spainsh hacienda: is it worthy?

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China fei123456
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Spainsh hacienda: is it worthy?

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Post by fei123456 »

What's a hacienda?
- It's a mixture of mill/plantation/firepit/village/livestock. It allows 20 settlers/sheep/cows to work on it, can gather villagers, and receive shiments.
- When it produces food/gold, it's a mill/plantation with a basic food/gold flow (equal to one villager). When you upgrade your villager efficiency on mill/plantation, this basic flow is upgraded too: so it's always equal to 1+x villagers (x is the count of villagers working in it).
- When they produce units (villagers/cows/soldados), it works like firepit of Aztec. The more units you put on it, the faster it produces units. Difference is that it also has a basic speed: if you put zero units on it, it still produce units slowly.
- When you put cows/sheep in it, it works as a livestock, making them grow faster; at the same time, they're counted as a working unit too (though it's much slower than normal villagers).

What about Spanish soldado (Mexico soldier)?
- They're auto-upgraded units, and have an extra 10% HP/attack bonus (just as Asian consulate units).
- In fortress age it has 390 HP, 42 ranged attack, 32x3 melee attack. It costs 90 food 80 gold each (240 vs).
- It has about 2/3 attack of a highlander. But it's definitely better than Hausa bodyguard (200 influence musket) without upgrades. So this price is quite OK.

Is it worthy to send 2 hacienda shipment?
- They're mills/plantations that contains doubled villagers, with 2 invisible villagers working on it. In late game you can put 40 villagers on them, and it saves you 2400 wood (4 plantations). But it's definitely bad to do this in 1v1 game.
- They can produce cows/settlers/soadados too. So is it OK? Let's do a statistic here:
table1.jpg
sec.jpg
A soldado is definitely more valuable than a settler/a cow, but it takes the least time to train them with hacienda. So it's definitely much better.

And what about the "gathering speed" of hacienda in different modes?
table2.jpg
eff.jpg
- We use 0.84 food/s and 0.6 gold/s to calculate the effeiency of hacienda in different modes.
- Soldado >> food/gold >> settler/cow. Soldado is the answer. Mill/plantation is OK in late game (it saved lots of wood). Forget the villagers/cows.
- Soldado/food/gold curve is linage, while settler/cow is slightly faster if you put more villagers on it (but the difference is tiny).
- And the basic efficiency: Soldado >> all. Even if you put no units in it, it still works as 2.75 villagers (and 2 hacienda > summer palace).
- When you put villagers on haciendas and produce soldado, they're nearly as efficiency as they gather nature resources. But after hunting dog/placer mine/steel trap, nature gatherers become faster.

Is it available to do this in 1v1 game?
- As mentioned above, they're slightly slower than gathering nature resources.
- Soldado are strong units. Though they have few upgrades from a Spanish deck, it takes less micro. Imagine how hard it is to micro lancer rod pike dog skirm cannon combo.
- Soldados take 2 population. You need to put quite some villagers on trees (or just send 1000 wood).
- Hacienda are most effective with 0 villagers in theory (summer palace mode), but 89 seconds for 2 soldado can't really help you. So you still need to put villagers on it. Sadly Spain has no war priests.
- Spain can get 4 hussar from upgrade, and has 5+4 lancers, 5 hussars and 2 cannons to fight together with soldados. But after that you'll need to split some villagers to gather food/gold for more lancers/skirms. It'll be hard to macro then.
- Do a standard FF and send 5 villagers, you'll have about 21-22 villagers on fortress. You may need to wall a bit. After reaching fortress, put all villagers on them, and you get about 6 soldados per minute. Do a timing push with lancer/cannon. Is it OK? I'm not sure. But it's definitely FUN.

Tips
- Training boost shipments (fencing school etc.) don't boost soldado training.
- Medicine doesn't boost hacienda villager training either.
- Villager gathering shipments (marvelous year) don't boost soldado either.
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Re: Spainsh hacienda: is it worthy?

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Post by kaister »

fei123456 wrote: ↑
26 Apr 2022, 20:45
- Soldado are strong units. Though they have few upgrades from a Spanish deck, it takes less micro. Imagine how hard it is to micro lancer rod pike dog skirm cannon combo.
Don't need to imagine! https://www.twitch.tv/rohbrot
Spoiler
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Re: Spainsh hacienda: is it worthy?

Post by Jets »

Mexico: AGE1, ships 1 hacienda + 2 vills
Spain: AGE3, ships 2 haciendas.

I rest my case.
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Re: Spainsh hacienda: is it worthy?

Post by duckzilla »

Jets wrote: ↑
27 Apr 2022, 06:08
Mexico: AGE1, ships 1 hacienda + 2 vills
Spain: AGE3, ships 2 haciendas.

I rest my case.
I see what you try to argue, but am not convinced. Mexico might have a stronger shipment than 2 Haciendas (age III), but that's not the point here. We don't need to consider Mexico at all when talking about this specific Spanish shipment.

In my opinion, 2 Haciendas is an alright shipment that facilitates the switch to mills/plantations. It is easily worth 2 mills + 2 plantations (you are not likely to need 4 plantations directly), which is 2000 wood. The Soldado training ability is nice to have but unlikely to be used too much except in 4v4 random only noob games. It's nice that the unit auto upgrades.
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Re: Spainsh hacienda: is it worthy?

Post by DayanG »

Quick question, can 2 hacienda with no vills set to produce vills be considered as 1 tc? That is, when the tc makes 2 vills, the two haciendas train 1 vill?
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Re: Spainsh hacienda: is it worthy?

Post by Plantinator »

DayanG wrote: ↑
30 Apr 2022, 08:07
Quick question, can 2 hacienda with no vills set to produce vills be considered as 1 tc? That is, when the tc makes 2 vills, the two haciendas train 1 vill?
Well that would still only be as good as half a tc in terms of speed. But i guess u dont pay the food so its slightly better than half of a tc. Tbh i see this shipment as a compromise between aggro and boom play if u send it in early age 3. U can have it on vills without spending extra food which may weaken ur mass. And u also get 240 xp from 2 haciendas so its less noticeable in my experience that u squeezed in an extra shipment ^^
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Re: Spainsh hacienda: is it worthy?

Post by fei123456 »

DayanG wrote: ↑
30 Apr 2022, 08:07
Quick question, can 2 hacienda with no vills set to produce vills be considered as 1 tc? That is, when the tc makes 2 vills, the two haciendas train 1 vill?
Hacienda with 0 vills produce a settler every 100 seconds. That's 1/4 TC.
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Re: Spainsh hacienda: is it worthy?

Post by duckzilla »

If I understand the tables correctly, you can use 6 villagers per hacienda to transform them into an unupgraded Ottoman town center. Alternatively, you can use 13 villagers to transform it to real TC (vill train time 25 seconds) with auto-spawn. In the case of Ottoman TC, you "spend" around 300VS or 250f per villager. In the second case, you spend around 325VS or 270f per villager.
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Re: Spainsh hacienda: is it worthy?

Post by helln00 »

duckzilla wrote: ↑
30 Apr 2022, 10:02
If I understand the tables correctly, you can use 6 villagers per hacienda to transform them into an unupgraded Ottoman town center. Alternatively, you can use 13 villagers to transform it to real TC (vill train time 25 seconds) with auto-spawn. In the case of Ottoman TC, you "spend" around 300VS or 250f per villager. In the second case, you spend around 325VS or 270f per villager.
The first case is actually not terrible considering that food-wise, you usually need about 5 vils on food in order to have enough food for a vil to be trained.
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Re: Spainsh hacienda: is it worthy?

Post by duckzilla »

helln00 wrote: ↑
30 Apr 2022, 11:12
duckzilla wrote: ↑
30 Apr 2022, 10:02
If I understand the tables correctly, you can use 6 villagers per hacienda to transform them into an unupgraded Ottoman town center. Alternatively, you can use 13 villagers to transform it to real TC (vill train time 25 seconds) with auto-spawn. In the case of Ottoman TC, you "spend" around 300VS or 250f per villager. In the second case, you spend around 325VS or 270f per villager.
The first case is actually not terrible considering that food-wise, you usually need about 5 vils on food in order to have enough food for a vil to be trained.
Actually, it's still terrible, because your 5 vills on food gather 100f in exactly the 25 seconds that a villager needs to train. In the case of the Ottoman TC hacienda, your 6 villagers need ~50 second for one to be trained (as much as the Ottoman TC without upgrades). Hence, you pay more than twice per villager.
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Re: Spainsh hacienda: is it worthy?

Post by helln00 »

duckzilla wrote: ↑
30 Apr 2022, 17:48
helln00 wrote: ↑
30 Apr 2022, 11:12
duckzilla wrote: ↑
30 Apr 2022, 10:02
If I understand the tables correctly, you can use 6 villagers per hacienda to transform them into an unupgraded Ottoman town center. Alternatively, you can use 13 villagers to transform it to real TC (vill train time 25 seconds) with auto-spawn. In the case of Ottoman TC, you "spend" around 300VS or 250f per villager. In the second case, you spend around 325VS or 270f per villager.
The first case is actually not terrible considering that food-wise, you usually need about 5 vils on food in order to have enough food for a vil to be trained.
Actually, it's still terrible, because your 5 vills on food gather 100f in exactly the 25 seconds that a villager needs to train. In the case of the Ottoman TC hacienda, your 6 villagers need ~50 second for one to be trained (as much as the Ottoman TC without upgrades). Hence, you pay more than twice per villager.
Yeah but considering that its an additional vil source to the tc and you can feed it back on itself tio reduce train time, its decent, you also dont deplete your natural food supplies on vils
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Re: Spainsh hacienda: is it worthy?

Post by Jets »

duckzilla wrote: ↑
27 Apr 2022, 06:51
I see what you try to argue, but am not convinced. Mexico might have a stronger shipment than 2 Haciendas (age III), but that's not the point here. We don't need to consider Mexico at all when talking about this specific Spanish shipment.

In my opinion, 2 Haciendas is an alright shipment that facilitates the switch to mills/plantations. It is easily worth 2 mills + 2 plantations (you are not likely to need 4 plantations directly), which is 2000 wood. The Soldado training ability is nice to have but unlikely to be used too much except in 4v4 random only noob games. It's nice that the unit auto upgrades.
You're right, but all that could be done by mexico with an age1 shipment, this is nothing but a joke of a card, you can argue all you want about vill seconds but the reality is that mexico is the baseline to measure the effectiveness of this card.
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Re: Spainsh hacienda: is it worthy?

Post by helln00 »

has anyone tested whether the new year shipment affects the villager spawn time at the hacienda? that and medicine for that matter.

Cause a 27% decrease in spawn time is pretty significant when combined with the 2 hacienda, if it works.

edit: so just from a random game, it does seem like the spawn time is affected by the new year card.

So like there is a significant potential for a equivalent to a 3 tc boom with the hacienda card if you just put like 6 vils on it
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Re: Spainsh hacienda: is it worthy?

Post by duckzilla »

Sounds like something I will try in a nooby 4v4 soon. With medicine and marvelous year, the reduction should be a whopping -42%, which is 12 free villagers from haciendas. Sounds interesting for some nice uncontested boom.
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Re: Spainsh hacienda: is it worthy?

Post by fei123456 »

duckzilla wrote: ↑
01 May 2022, 08:25
Sounds like something I will try in a nooby 4v4 soon. With medicine and marvelous year, the reduction should be a whopping -42%, which is 12 free villagers from haciendas. Sounds interesting for some nice uncontested boom.
Nope. Any shipments that reduce villager production time don't work with hacienda.
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Re: Spainsh hacienda: is it worthy?

Post by duckzilla »

That's a bummer
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Re: Spainsh hacienda: is it worthy?

Post by TranceGate »

In my opinion the 2 hacienda are one more for Spain, in 1v1 I don't see much practicality in using this expedition even if it is quite affordable for what it does and therefore the total cost of the res is 1200 wood and it makes from 3 different buildings in addition, it can automatically produce livestock or settler resources. In team, on the other hand, it is quite convenient and in my opinion Spain didn't need such an expedition or at least not 2 hacienda but 1 hacienda and 4/5 cows or 1 hacienda and 5 colonists.
Let's be clear I mean that 2 hacienda are more than good as a team but overall Spain didn't need haciende it was as good as it was!
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Re: Spainsh hacienda: is it worthy?

Post by helln00 »

fei123456 wrote: ↑
01 May 2022, 09:49
duckzilla wrote: ↑
01 May 2022, 08:25
Sounds like something I will try in a nooby 4v4 soon. With medicine and marvelous year, the reduction should be a whopping -42%, which is 12 free villagers from haciendas. Sounds interesting for some nice uncontested boom.
Nope. Any shipments that reduce villager production time don't work with hacienda.
This is just a test but here is 6 vils on the hacienda with marvelous new years, the time is only 35 secs, which is much faster then the 50 secs bei
Picture1.png
This is with medicine only
Picture2.png
and this is with both
Picture3.png
There is clearly an effec
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Re: Spainsh hacienda: is it worthy?

Post by duckzilla »

Cool, so it actually seems to work. I'm thinking about doing a brutally greedy build in 4v4 with sending 3v/700g/medicine/spanish gold/2 haciends/marvelous year, aiming at FF with tc wagon and building one by myself. Ideally, I should have 99 villagers at ~14m.
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Re: Spainsh hacienda: is it worthy?

Post by andrewgs »

probably faster vils if you send a tc wagon than the hacendias
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Re: Spainsh hacienda: is it worthy?

Post by duckzilla »

andrewgs wrote: ↑
01 May 2022, 14:07
probably faster vils if you send a tc wagon than the hacendias
But TCs are capped at 3. When I age with TC wagon and build another one with explorer, I'm already at that cap. Hence, I can save that shipment for other stuff.
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Re: Spainsh hacienda: is it worthy?

Post by helln00 »

So from further testing, how it works ( I think) is that each villager decreases the spawn time marginally by 10% (ie Spawn time of N vils = Spawn time of N-1 vils x 0.9)

The new years and medicine card however is just a decrease to the base of the hacienda spawn time (ie it goes from the 100 to 72.5) and then every vil on the hacienda is 10% decrease from that new base.

That kinda means that the new years card is equivalent to 3 vils on the hacienda while the medicine card is only worth 1.5 vils.
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Re: Spainsh hacienda: is it worthy?

Post by duckzilla »

Hacienda with Marvelous Year is defintely fun. I put 5 vills on both haciendas and started to produce vills, sending them directly to the haciendas themselves. Didn't look for some time due to some skirmishes and suddenly Haciendas were 20/20 :O

The gather rates boost seems to stack in an aura-like fashion. At least it did not feel like I was running out of resources although I was pumping vills fast from 3 TCs and did some military on the side. Spanish Gold obviously helps here, since I didn't really need to put a lot of vills on gold. Still lost of course, because we were rushed :ugly:
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Re: Spainsh hacienda: is it worthy?

Post by draztik »

I am retired coz of my carpal tunnel but I would have been curious to try the 2 haciendas card : , 3vill, capitalism, 700 gold, 700 wood, up with TC and build another one reaching age III and then Spanish gold, CM, 2 haciendas.
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Re: Spainsh hacienda: is it worthy?

Post by Garja »

does the new card also speeds up vill production from haciendas?
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