How strong is Aztec currently?

[hidden_blaze]

So I've been trying to play Aztec recently, and cannot say I feel like I'm doing the first thing right. When I play colonial, I'm getting outboomed most of the time, when I try to ff with WP, the timing push of my opponents just hits to hard. They feel kinda underwhelming to me, with a worse age 2 than on EP where they already were considered D-tier iirc and a better age 3 that you can reach much easier, but it still doesn't seem to hold a candle against strong age 3 civs like china or dutch. I've been checking recent games on ESOCTV, but noone seems to play them (last games I found were from last year where kalmacac wasn't even a card I think).

So yeah, my question is, how strong do you consider Aztec to be right now? Are they just not that good or am I doing things wrong?

Thanks in advance

[fei123456]

It's definitely the stronger tier. You can send 2 war hut travois first, and cavalry raiding/normal pressure is nothing.

[Garja]

It's definitely the stronger tier. You can send 2 war hut travois first, and cavalry raiding/normal pressure is nothing.

bruh why you so obsessed with 2wh card, it's mediocre

So I've been trying to play Aztec recently, and cannot say I feel like I'm doing the first thing right. When I play colonial, I'm getting outboomed most of the time, when I try to ff with WP, the timing push of my opponents just hits to hard. They feel kinda underwhelming to me, with a worse age 2 than on EP where they already were considered D-tier iirc and a better age 3 that you can reach much easier, but it still doesn't seem to hold a candle against strong age 3 civs like china or dutch. I've been checking recent games on ESOCTV, but noone seems to play them (last games I found were from last year where kalmacac wasn't even a card I think).

So yeah, my question is, how strong do you consider Aztec to be right now? Are they just not that good or am I doing things wrong?

Thanks in advance

Aztecs are not easy to play so it's likely you're doing suboptimal stuff. However you are right, they're not that good atm. Even tho they received many buffs they still retain the traditional weaknesses. I don't think China and Dutch are particularly hard MU (French and India are worse for example) but no MU is great for them atm (maybe Japan is).
I wouldn't advise rushing (especially with the war hut units, check my maya rush strat instead) but rather just do a 10WP boom and then decide whether to do a timing push in age2 or just age up. Against China you can even just 4wp naked FF for a slinger/skull/coyote combo. The FI is strong and works best vs civs that don't have goons (can't abuse army mobility) and civs that don't have top boom (like India can just boom and match Aztec age ups).
On water maps you can do water strats and in theory the old coyote opening strats should still be viable but require you to know ins and out of the civ plus have top notch mechanics to multitask micro and macro perfectly.

[hidden_blaze]

So thanks for the answers, I appreciate the input! 2 WH first sounds like a bit of a hassle, like there're so many shipments I wanna send in early colonial (3WP, 5v, 700w, military) that I wouldn't know where to chuck that in.

I read the maya-rush BO you posted and practiced it offline against the AI, didn't use it in MP yet though. Waht I am very confused with is the Calmecac card. Do you always ship that regardless of what you're doing? Or do you only send it when you wanna ff and need it to got to age 3 quicker? I used to send it when I played a colonial build to age into age 2 faster with the Elder, so I could use the messenger later if I ever wanna go age 3, thing is that that leaves you without a shipment once you hit age 2 which felt really suboptimal. So should i just skip it if I'm not planning to go age 3 anytime soon or should I still send it because it also gives a WP, and eventually I might wanna go to age 3 anyways? You talk about a 4 WP ff so i assume you wouldn't send calmacac in that build (Otherwise would be 5 WP wouldn't it)? I'm kinda confused about all the different combinations of politicians and calmacac possibilities that seem possible that I cannot really say which ones are viable.

[Garja]

Calmecac card is only for a better 10WP boom because you have to put 9-10 vills in transition to get another shipment. I think it's still useful even for the age2 timing because you can age with the war hut and don't have to wait for 700w to drop it.

[leg[]]

I believe they are mid-tier and in late-game they are top-tier. Obviously, skirmishers are just better. Any usual army comp from euro civs like Germans, especially once skirms start mixing in, tends to have an advantage. There could be some randomness in this. A top Aztec player could still win some matches by sheer luck or even in lategame situations, but the odds are stacked against them. (underpowered slightly in most cases, they have to outplay an opponent completely, or do much more things to win)

I suggest to see results back in 2008 when the top players played and were figuring out top strategies. The outcome was that even at its height as a contending civ, you could sometimes win with Aztecs, but if your opponent really wants to win, they'll generally be able to get to age3 and win with skirmishers. Any amazing Aztec players usually fell short of winning a tournament even if it was by 1 game, but also only got close probably because of misplays by the other player. I believe it's even been nerfed slightly since then too, thus it can't possibly be a top tier 1 on 1 civ, but this was done in ancient times (like around when Asian Dynasties expansion came out, and dlcs were called expansions). Top play is balanced around 1v1 and usually the game is decided by age2/age3 in most cases.

I think Aztecs is just a 'good civ' where playing a better civ will only defeat them (or simply make it harder for them) more easily, but it's still balanced enough to play or try to win. It is balanced for most games. Not that I have credibility like Diarogua who played this game in tournaments back when it was newer, or someone like Garja who extensively know it better.

With ability to just play Japan (or India/Chinese), and now DLCS like Mayans who seem have a better rush anyway, Aztecs just seem like they lost their spot as the 'play to win' civ, but are balanced enough where a good player can easily still win or generally do better, even when placed against tough 1v2 odds when they apply micro and apply their specialized units exactly as intended; that is where Aztecs shine most. However a really good player doing boring high skill plays won't let you do what you want, and so Aztecs will usually slowly lose in that case. It's definitely still an all-in gamble.

For most type of games I think Aztecs has a good chance of winning, as not everyone is a top player applying boring top strategies to win the same way in like 8-12 minutes of the game. They are top-tier for late-game when fully built up with firepit/wardance for deathmatch and spamming units; with full war dance their units generally deal more damage than any in the game.

The fact skirms generally trade so well even against their only counter which is coyote runners is the deal sealer. That, and Japan is like anti-Aztec, you just spam Ashi-archers which are like anti-infantry longbows (almost like cheat to win at that point), or muskets, and their eco and everything are just better. That is also probably long discovered and when I see top players saying Japan is a top civ I can only feel like it makes sense why.

I think Coyotes are the main thing that would need to be tweaked to allow Aztecs to become a top civ. Much higher ranged resistance (like a tanky unit that deals less attack), but add slightly more multiplier against actual skirmishers and cavalry would probably invite some fun balance where you'd have to actually micro more to defeat Coyote spammers; they won't then just be a waste where you know they're thousands of resources probably all going to die doing their job. Better players would know not to shoot at the coyote runners as much but others would just get confused and die from trying to shoot at them too much; Yet it probably won't ever happen. Coyote are more costly in the beginning at 115 resources, and don't even scale well like cavalry do: they are countered by cannons, their direct counter when balled up sort of beats them anyway, and with the upgrade card sent, only max out around 330 hp. Spamming them is generally a loss against any mass of skirms and generic units even if they are trading/mixed in. Arrow knights and micro with coyote runners mixed in is really the only way to counter and generally spamming much more units, but a euro civ can equally put out more units and deal more damage as well. Also consider you have to put in gold/wood if you had to switch to spamming coyote runners, make a much larger mass of them (which could equate to thousands of resources that you know aregoing to mostly die), and upgrade Coyote runners separately, which is usually not a great deal or at least, would require some extra time, so not good against 1v1 but good in team games and others where timing is more relaxed anyway. I would like to see them be like a 'tanky/fast' unit that deals much less damage and swarms around as currently they are just like a suicidal unit that costs 15% more and it scales badly (imo that 15 extra resources per coyote runner scales worse than even than any 200 resource cavalry the longer the game lasts)