China efficient age2 build

[Garja]

This is a good build for China age2 play. It is actually fairly basic (I know there are already similar builds) yet very smooth and efficient. I think that compared to other age2 China builds this one maximes the amount of units you get at any point in age2 (except for sub 7 min where more rushy builds are better) while also being easy to execute.

It can be used for spamming either the Standard Army (chokunu+steppe) or the Old Han army (chokunu+pike). Can even mix the two by toying with the crate cards or switching vills from coin to wood at the exact moment. In this case the build will inevitably lose some efficiency. The Standard army is the most efficient one in terms of unit output.

The basic card orther is:

Nothern refugees | Tea export | 700w | unit card | unit card (yes, simple and intuitive)

The follow up is:

unit upgrade 1 | unit upgrade 2 | 600w | 700c | 700f or spice trade

but this depends exactly on which of the two armies you decide to make. For example if you are only making the Old Han army, the Mongolian Scourge card is not needed and will be likely replaced by 600w.


The actual build

With the card order already down I won't organise the build by age as usual but just give a brief description of it with some key clarifications when needed.

Basically start with TP + house and send the Nothern Refugees card. Then Tea export and ally with Germans. Soon after dropping the consulate you have 200 export ready so get the food trickle. Try to mop up as many treasures as possible, particularly wood and food. Eat the goat when it's fattened at 100f to age up slightly faster.
Meanwhile drop the Summer Palace with 4 vills and move all vills but 5 to wood to collect 200w which will be used for the rax. After that, the vill allocation is all on food but 9 on coin for the Standard army or 12 on wood for the Old Han army. Numbers may vary slightly depending on treasures and it is up to you to balance them. The TC rally point is to food.
Once aged, collect the crates with two vills and drop the rax with other two. Send 700w and when it arrives collect it with three food vills. Always move back villagers to their original resource to preserve the optimal vill allocation.
Quickly drop two (later a third and fourth one) villages while still queuing units. The faster you drop the village the sooner you can send the unit card(s) that follows in the build. It can be any two of the army of choice, depending on which you need. Try not sending the unit card that won't benefit from the upgrades (usually the pike card).
If making the Standard army you can also squeeze the market and first tier food and coin ups from 700w but will have to fight at about 8 minutes to free pop space for constant production. Alternatively spare the remaining wood and drop a 5th village later on another hunt.
Send one or both ups and at this point you should be at the peak army count relatively to time. This means you have few extra units compared to most civs. Numbers are actually similar across all civs but if you can make use of both units with China - e.g. your combo is ideal for the MU/situation - you will have more and with that an advantage you can leverage. This is the main strenght of the build: a great amount of upgraded units to do a timing to punish a semi FF or to fight opponents who are also playing age2.
The other advantage is in the follow up which is also great. By this time (8:10) you will have 250 export for the wood trickle. Get it and switch the consulate to Brits. Also by this time, you can rebalance your macro (few vills from food to wood) to start getting the other market ups if making the Standard army.

With 600w you can also drop the market (yes it's not that more efficient to drop it earlier) and soon a 2nd rax. With 700c next card you can start producing the Standard army from two raxes and soon even from three. The next card can be anything, but in line with the idea of just spamming units I find 700f being a good choice. Spice trade is the long term alternative if the map has lot of hunts (and starting berries) or just 300export for redcoats or spies.
The third already mentioned and intangible advantage is that it is easy to execute. Compare this build to, for example, the classic manor boom and you will realize how easier it is. Easier build means you have more spare APM for actually microing units etc. even tho you're not supposed to engage in early fights anyway. Later on, however, being easy to execute will still come into play.

To sum it up:

TP+village and consulate as second card in age1. Consulate is on Germany (cheaper batches, not bad) till you get the two resource trickles then switch to Brits.
Unit spam is from one rax no idle till about 700c (7th card in age2). You also get units from the summer palace and from two cards so the military pop count will be great. The eco is good because of the two trickles and eventually the market ups. China units are super cost efficient so you will find yourself with more stuff than the opponent and will starve later than him.

This exact build is not great against strong rushes. In that case you have to adapt and prioritize collecting resources for minutemen while possibly even sending units as your first card in age2.
Likewise this build is not that good against certain civs that have good FF or semi FF with units that naturally counter China (e.g. Spain FF who have lancers, 2 falcs and melee anticav, or Germans who have the easiest cav+skirm spam). With that said, at the current stage of DE balance, I wouldn't be surprised if this build mastered by someone with very good mechanics can beat strats like that just because of the sheer amount of "stuff" this build generates. China units may not be amazing and it's true they are cheap but weak, however they all have good multipliers and side stats (speed and resistance). It takes a skillful player in order for those things to make the difference, but there is potential in the build.
Against FI or revo strats you will probably have to do a strong timing to disrupt it or age up to get better units and survive their own push.
Against everything else you are probably fine with some adaptations (e.g. vs water play either right click their base or add stagecoach).

Finally, is this build better than China FF? Probably no.

[Mitoe]

I haven't really tested a lot of age 2 builds recently, but I doubt Northern Refugees + Tea Export is worth it. Shipping 2v as a 2nd age 1 card doesn't work for any other civ and I don't see why China should be the only exception. Probably best to commit to one or the other.

[KaanHoca]

I haven't really tested a lot of age 2 builds recently, but I doubt Northern Refugees + Tea Export is worth it. Shipping 2v as a 2nd age 1 card doesn't work for any other civ and I don't see why China should be the only exception. Probably best to commit to one or the other.

idk if tea export should be considered as an 2v card... the buildtime and cost of cons alone makes it 225w shipment + 100export which will be soon worth an wood/food trickle which is worth another 2v and the 0.35export trickle is also worth more than 1v (I think 600ress of doppels each 20mins).

oh u mean northern refugees? Yea, also unsure on that one I like to combine it with 600w/700w and then send it as an 5v-7v card in age2.

[Lukas_L99]

I haven't really tested a lot of age 2 builds recently, but I doubt Northern Refugees + Tea Export is worth it. Shipping 2v as a 2nd age 1 card doesn't work for any other civ and I don't see why China should be the only exception. Probably best to commit to one or the other.

I also think its underwhelming, you can just save if for a late 7 vill shipment in late age 2/3.

[Garja]

Well it fits the build. 2v is not a bad card when you don't have better alternatives (well with China you do, but they don't quite work with the build). For example, double village doesn't give the exp for the card progression and tea export alone is pretty useless and you end up with not enough eco for the build to work smoothly.
The way I see it is basically just a way to speed up the build since you need that extra eco early on and the consulate is something you will build anyway. The trickle and the cost reduction work together to get unit batches with no idle.
In past I played other builds similar to this and ended up building the consulate from 700w or 600w, or simply skipping the consulate in favor of one extra village. All of those things turn out to be inferior. Maybe it's also cause in past villages costed more but that's what I've found out by playing age2 China again. And anyway the consulate in this build gives ton of value in terms of cheaper batches (think you get atleast 6-7 of them before switching to Brits) and in terms of trickles which should be something like 4-5 vills. Having those things early make quite a difference.

In the end it is simply a classic 700w unit unit timing build, except that the consulate in transition gives gradually more eco and allows good unit production so that you don't 100% need the 3rd unit card to time the opponent. That spare card can be used for 600w or an upgrade while also not killing the tempo. The result is a much better follow up than before since 2 raxes come earlier. And 2 raxes with China is quite glorious. It's almost the equivalent of 2 rax+stable with euro civs, because it's more units per batch (or more "real pop worth") and they train as fast as xbow/pikes. The mass production effect typical of civs like China/Aztec/Russia is amplified with this build imo, compared to old crate/unit builds.


By the way I just realized I might have it mixed up now compared to when I originally came up with this build. It is maybe smoother to send 600w and 700c before the unit ups if there is no urgent need.

P.S.
Other civs also use 2 vill cards. Hausa used to use the "eco theory" card (actually Ports too). Japan also uses 2v and Brits could be played with 2v too. Capitalism is also 2.5 vills or so and it's a viable card.

[alistairpeter]

what about tea export 700w then the vill card? this makes it function more like a 4/5 vill card and the 700w gives xp to pivot into it, but you'd end up sending it in age 2 instead of transition, and they wouldn't be gathering as long. When I rush I always seem to send 7 steppe first, and judge if I can go all in or not after that.

[alistairpeter]

What civs would you use this build against? I have done a similar build for flamethrower timings (flamethrowers and dops stacking area is a nice comp) but with only a castle instead of two raxes. Instead of sending 2 vills I send GFA and get the food crates and 500w, then switch to German with cheaper trickles and push when the doppels are ready; this allows me to save the villager card for later if I want to. When I go for GFA I almost always send 300 export at some point, so switching to Brit before my push is possible, unless I insist on pushing without it. The castle army also takes full advantage of Mongolian scourge, and flamethrowers + 16 chu ko nu in shipments usually covers HI, but I often send 9 pike if I'm worried about cav.

[Mitoe]

P.S.
Other civs also use 2 vill cards. Hausa used to use the "eco theory" card (actually Ports too). Japan also uses 2v and Brits could be played with 2v too. Capitalism is also 2.5 vills or so and it's a viable card.

To be specific I mean when you're sending 2 cards in age 1. It's virtually never worth it to send cards like 2 CDB or 2v after you've already send 3 CDB or 3v. It's simply better to save the card for the next age. It takes about 10 minutes for 2 villagers to be equivalent to 600w (as opposed to ~6.5 minutes for 3v). That just seems a bit weak, IMO.

Capitalism as an extra card is a lot better than 2v since it both gathers faster and generates resources out of thin air, and is also available to civs that have more shipments/XP early on. Spain, for example, can send 3v Capitalism and still send 2-3 cards back to back in age 2, which is almost enough time for the card to pay off when you consider that it also means you don't need to expose your villagers on new mines as early into the game.

Personally I think it's likely better to just ship the consulate card first and skip Northern Refugees altogether.

[Garja]

To be specific I mean when you're sending 2 cards in age 1. It's virtually never worth it to send cards like 2 CDB or 2v after you've already send 3 CDB or 3v. It's simply better to save the card for the next age. It takes about 10 minutes for 2 villagers to be equivalent to 600w (as opposed to ~6.5 minutes for 3v). That just seems a bit weak, IMO.

Capitalism as an extra card is a lot better than 2v since it both gathers faster and generates resources out of thin air, and is also available to civs that have more shipments/XP early on. Spain, for example, can send 3v Capitalism and still send 2-3 cards back to back in age 2, which is almost enough time for the card to pay off when you consider that it also means you don't need to expose your villagers on new mines as early into the game.

Personally I think it's likely better to just ship the consulate card first and skip Northern Refugees altogether.

Ok it would be a fair objection and I'd agree on that if it wasn't for the specific nature of this build, or rather, China early age2 curve. China actually benefits by having an in between card in transition because its early eco is not that great and with the exception of units, age2 cards only provide one resource at time. I ended up with this conclusion by testing other builds before this one. Classic builds with NF, 700w, unit, unit, etc. still work but you soon realize that they are nothing special. Sometimes you end up with too much wood you can't spend (not enough food), or simply if you want to make mainly the Standard army there is not crate that helps in that sense, because 700c doesn't provide wood for housing and 700w doesn't provide the coin for that banner army. And with low eco you can't afford the 9 vills on coin required to have no idle rax.
Tea export on German consulate nets about 400f through cost saving from the trained units, plus the value of the two trickles and of course the 200-250w of the consulate itself. It's a legit age2 card sent in age1, possibly the best age2 card China has.

Now, why not send only tea Export then? Well, because:
1) you miss out two vills for basically the whole duration of the build as nothern refugees can't be sent at any point if you want the same tight timings in terms of units, upgrades, etc. Two vills is a lot
of resources and the lack of it cripples the build entirely. In fact I'd even say that for practical purposes 2v at 2:30 are better than 5v at 6:00.
2) when arriving as first card, it only provides enough export to get the French consulate food crates. But you don't want the French consulate, you want the German one since it's way better. And can't
wait for the German food trickle either because then it's still a wasted card for 2 minutes and your age1 will be terrible (aging too late, etc.).

Surely there is a version of this kind of build with French consulate, getting 300f and then 600w (while enjoying the 5% gathering boost), while maybe aging with the 3v wonder (that's what Mini does iirc) and I'm pretty sure I've tested those builds already But I'm fairly confident this "new" build is simply better. It's a lot tighter and everything is ready just in time to work perfectly. The only downside is that the max efficiency effect is limited to producing only one type of army. So it's perhaps better in team rather than in 1v1. However, as I said, by playing with 600w, 700c and the unit shipments it's still possible to mix different types of army if needed.

[helln00]

If you want to send both refugees and tea export, might it not be better to do the 3 village build instead? like here viewtopic.php?t=24133

with 3 village you get enough xp to send tea export as well and a 4 vil pop in age 1 is a lot more eco transitioning into age 2

In addition, since you are sending tea export in transition, it also can make sense to delay getting a trickle to get wood instead for slightly more vil seconds

[Garja]

If you want to send both refugees and tea export, might it not be better to do the 3 village build instead? like here viewtopic.php?t=24133

with 3 village you get enough xp to send tea export as well and a 4 vil pop in age 1 is a lot more eco transitioning into age 2

In addition, since you are sending tea export in transition, it also can make sense to delay getting a trickle to get wood instead for slightly more vil seconds

The problem is you can't quite use the extra 2v to get any more units out. Also 3 village open is harder to pull off (easy to fuck up), it kinda relies on treasures to have a decent age up time, otherwise you age too late. Also the shipment rate is not quite as good because of no TP. You also have to wait for age2 to get the wood trickle btw.
The best you can do with that is to skip 700w and just send unit cards and rush (2nd village is forward). But even then your unit card doesn't come early enough in the opponent base (at best at 5:40) and the the unit count is not better than my build at any point.

[callentournies]

glad to see the forums aren't dead. thanks garja

[Garja]

By the way Tea Export can also be sent as 2nd age1 card in the standard FF whenever you don't need a unit shipment in age2 to defend and don't need Intervention (Brit cons). For example against Dutch.
In that case it's very similar to sending 700c 700w 600w but I'd say it's still a superior version because Tea Export:
- nets more resources in the long run (200w from consulate, alteast 500f from unit batches, trickles)
- provides a boost earlier than 600w
- it somewhat helps defending because makes more affordable to save resources for minutemen/age up in time

[helln00]

against dutch I used to do a french intervention FF to spam grens that would pressure and take down banks before dutch gets to mass

age 3 royal guard grens are very hard for skirms to kill and backed up by changdao and pikes cav cant deal with them and you can mass both pretty fast with intervention + 300 export + 10 changdao

There is possibly a build where you start French consulate and just forward FF right into the dutch base

[KaanHoca]

thx to this build I know that china age2 is veri bad

I saw shit in my life happen to me like:
russia rush into priest transition?! (wtf do I build against millions frontline priests with 300hp with units which are only useful to kill their counters)
attacking piro FF with 1st batch and enemy is omw age3-2falcs me ded
losing china mirror on livestock map bcz china villages casual 25% fattenrate, nice baitcard this white sheepy card I think its called stockyards or somethijng

ye we gonna contuinue callenFI with cows or classic otto which actually can be played normal w/o needing 90f/80w treasure right off the start like why do I even pay for 20pop in age1 for 2v civ xD
with otto I do 2:15 ageup 10/10 no chopping, no tc idle, no weird shipment curve maths, just afk'n'chill with capitalism whilee clicking up

[KaanHoca]

maybe an topic about this funny age2 disciple rush bo atleast it has 1k hp explorer which was only useful unit I feel like (combined with the advanced monastary in age1)

[Garja]

ok