Inca fort damage doesn't add up

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Italy Garja
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Inca fort damage doesn't add up

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Post by Garja »

I was testing the Inca fort against various units and apparently the damage exceeds what stated in the UI. The fort is supposed to have only negative bonuses according to the UI so things don't add up.
For math purposes I tested it against a war wagon which has no ranged resistance.
With no units inside, the fort is supposed to deal 10(6) damage but it is actually 80 damage per volley.
With 25 units inside (max capacity), the UI says 35(6) ranged attack, which is supposed to be 210 but again it actually deals 280 damage (which is 35*8).
Then with 10 units inside, the UI says it is 20(6) but the damage is all over the place. First round is 140 damage, then 181, then 161 (so the average seems to be roughly 160).

Seems like the Inca fort actually fires 8 arrows each volley and not just 6 like the UI indicates. That would explain why it feels so strong.
Surely it is a bug or why the UI is so misleading? Also, why the hell the Inca fort with 25 units inside is supposed to deal 1.4 times more damage than a euro fort when this one is about 1.5 times more expensive?

By the way, the American citadel (new Aztec fort) has the exact same problem (10*6 but actually deals 80 damage). Funnily enough the citadel (figurative) cost is 400w 400c and cannot be rebuilt. The stronghold costs 350w 350c and you can (re)build 2 of them after the card.
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Re: Inca fort damage doesn't add up

Post by look »

It's just ridiculous to have a fort that you can't fight without artillery.
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Re: Inca fort damage doesn't add up

Post by Struggling Hedonist »

Garja wrote:
29 Feb 2024, 06:02
... why the hell the Inca fort with 25 units inside is supposed to deal 1.4 times more damage than a euro fort when this one is about 1.5 times more expensive?

...
Could it because there's 25 units idling inside it?
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Re: Inca fort damage doesn't add up

Post by Garja »

Struggling Hedonist wrote:
29 Feb 2024, 11:12
Garja wrote:
29 Feb 2024, 06:02
... why the hell the Inca fort with 25 units inside is supposed to deal 1.4 times more damage than a euro fort when this one is about 1.5 times more expensive?

...
Could it because there's 25 units idling inside it?
Ye then make it do the same damage as a euro fort?!
25 units is nothing and using them inside the fort when the opponent approaches is not "idling them".
Not even the Aztec fort (same base stats) with 10wp and 15v on Town dance has the same damage. And you can make 2 of those Inca forts in age3 after the card.
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Re: Inca fort damage doesn't add up

Post by Struggling Hedonist »

I don't know, that seems pretty idle to me. Inca fort damage literally adds up.
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Re: Inca fort damage doesn't add up

Post by Garja »

They're essentially fighting form inside the fort and they're there only because the opponent army is nearby threatening the fort. It wouldn't be a balance problem if the damage was reasonable which, at the moment, is not. On top of that it's also bugged.
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Re: Inca fort damage doesn't add up

Post by Scylla-x »

It is worth noting that as standard the stronghold cannot hit falconets as it is out ranged by them so just the 2 falc shipment can take it down with sufficient protection. In this sense it is different from a euro fort which by itself can kill 2 falconets if they are not supported by other units. HP is also 6000 while euro fort is 9000.
There is a tech at the stronghold which slightly boosts their range so they can hit falconets, however whether that is worth 600 resources in 1v1 is questionable.

The stronghold also depends on units being garrisoned, which is slow to do now since it got nerfed. Otherwise an empty stronghold is doing half the damage of a euro fort with less aoe. Euro fort also has a tech for 50% more damage and the stronghold has no such tech only having the 50% more hp tech which euro forts already have and benefit greater from due to higher base hp.

Should you still be struggling vs strongholds the advanced artillery card recently got buffed and also ships a mortar as well as allowing to train more.
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Re: Inca fort damage doesn't add up

Post by Garja »

2 falconets are so easily sniped by huaracas that they're not even worth considering. 5 falconets+ maybe, only two definetely not.

6000 vs 9000 hp is in line with the building cost (700 vs 1100 resources).
The stonghold depends on units being garrisoned to defend from units that threaten it. No units attacking the fort no need to put units inside it.

The advanced artillery card I'd say works ok vs euro forts (in fact the card is even too good in some regard) but it doesnt work vs Inca because while you slow siege, Inca is outbooming and by the time you take down the fort another one has been built.
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Re: Inca fort damage doesn't add up

Post by Scylla-x »

They are easily sniped though you do force the shipment and huaracas are worthless vs anything other than artillery while 2 falconets are much more useful so there is that. If they do just cockroach with the strongholds then I guess advanced artillery is the answer because you'll get a mortar to start sieging and if they are investing 700 res into another stronghold then you can build more mortars to deal with it cost efficiently.

Inca just also received nerfs to all its main units with cost increases, spearmen now costs more than a janissary lol which is somewhat unjustified imo.
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Re: Inca fort damage doesn't add up

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Post by Garja »

Huaraca are not worthless, they also do fine against infantry and they do their own siege if Inca is given the opportunity to attack.
Advanced artillery is too slow and it's not a solution. The sole fact that you slow roll a civ that enjoys buying time to outscale while raiding you to death is game losing. And that is if mortars are actually cost efficent, which they don't even are because if you only use the one from the card it's not enough and if you build more it's overkill and you might take down the fort (not granted) but you lose elsewhere because you invested too much on it.
Actually the cost nerf could even be underseved, but it goes to show that the problem with Inca is not with the units.
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Re: Inca fort damage doesn't add up

Post by Scylla-x »

Garja wrote:
08 Mar 2024, 18:37
Huaraca are not worthless, they also do fine against infantry and they do their own siege if Inca is given the opportunity to attack.
Advanced artillery is too slow and it's not a solution. The sole fact that you slow roll a civ that enjoys buying time to outscale while raiding you to death is game losing. And that is if mortars are actually cost efficent, which they don't even are because if you only use the one from the card it's not enough and if you build more it's overkill and you might take down the fort (not granted) but you lose elsewhere because you invested too much on it.
Actually the cost nerf could even be underseved, but it goes to show that the problem with Inca is not with the units.
Huaraca got nerfed last patch so now they only have a multi vs heavy infantry, something you have no need for as you have jungle bows. They basically just get shredded by skirms now and lose cost effectively vs almost every unit other than artillery. They're fine for what they do but they aren't standing up against skirms or even heavy infantry cost effectively. They're basically just a weak culv equivalent with higher siege. Huaraca range was also nerfed in addition to nerfing its infantry multiplier.

I think advanced artillery card is fine at least in terms of trading efficiently. Inca send stronghold card so you send advanced artillery, inca invests 700 res trying to build second fort so you build a second mortar but you're not investing any more than inca are.

Until recently like last 2 patches inca have had a negative win rate forever, they were consistently either worst or second worst along with ports at that time. They could not deal with heavy cannons at all so devs tried to change it by buffing the artillery multiplier of both chimu and huaracas and buffing huaraca range. This proved too much in age 3, all they had to do was buff huaraca range/multi in age 4.

Either way I think we'll see incas win rate lower over time with so many unwarranted nerfs to pretty much the whole unit roster.
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Re: Inca fort damage doesn't add up

Post by Garja »

Lol Inca is the best or 2nd best civ and it has been this way since forever. I don't remember a single patch where Inca was a weak civ.
But ye maybe now huaraca is ok.
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Re: Inca fort damage doesn't add up

Post by Scylla-x »

Garja wrote:
09 Mar 2024, 02:08
Lol Inca is the best or 2nd best civ and it has been this way since forever. I don't remember a single patch where Inca was a weak civ.
But ye maybe now huaraca is ok.
Its win rate was 1 of the lowest for a very long time and I know win rate is not necessarily all important but it is significant. It is like how many claim ethiopia is incredibly OP yet across all elo levels it has negative win rate every patch and lowest pick rate, clearly 99% of the player base just cannot play it but 1% of the pro 2k+ elo players can and for many that seems reason enough to continue nerfing which I disagree with.
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Re: Inca fort damage doesn't add up

Post by Garja »

Win rates at the moment are completely useless, sample is too small and the meta keep changing (in general not necessarily Inca) so there is too much variance.
It would take atleast 50k games from the same patch at 1800+ level to start drawing any conclusion about a civ.
Anyway, this thread is not about balance per se, we are going off topic. The topic is about the fort being bugged. Damage should match what's stated in the UI, then we can talk about whether it is still too good or not.
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