ELO ~ 1075 India vs Dutch

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ELO ~ 1075 India vs Dutch

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Post by SamFisher101 »

A game against the Dutch, where my sowar melted against his pikes and all his skirms survived. A lesson in taking a bad location for a fight and poor micro. My opponent managed his pikes very effectively!
Question: Would it make sense to go gurkha zam with a few sowar in colonial for this matchup instead of sepoy sowar?
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Re: ELO ~ 1075 India vs Dutch

Post by Kanoo »

Or just delay his age up with a few skirmishes and follow him up to 3?
What would be ideal?
thebritish wrote: ↑
19 Jan 2016, 09:58
So, you are saying that if i watch H20's rec, i can beat anyone below H20's level because i know his BO?
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Re: ELO ~ 1075 India vs Dutch

Post by SamFisher101 »

I was just thinking about this over dinner, and here's my take:
- Dutch age 2 objective is to survive and get to age 3 as fast as possible. In that respect, delaying his age up is critical. One factor that I want to point out here is my rather late age up time (despite collecting a treasure). I think India needs to age up before the Dutch to be able to pressure them early with sepoy.
- On the Gurkha + Zam + Sowar composition: While the Gurkha is slightly outranged by the skirmisher (18 vs 20), India's objective is for the game to remain in age 2 for as long as possible. This means most of my resources would go to creating units, while Dutch ideally ships 700g to age up behind a small batch of pikes + skirm. Making more Gurkha would either force more skirm from him or force him to build a stable and make a few hussar if he is really impatient. Hussar costs more, so this would further increase his age up timing. This is where the zams come in. If I can have 25-30% of my army to consist of Zam and the rest Gurkha + Sowar, I can effectively delay his age up by always pressuring him in his base.
- Effect of this decision in age 3: Once Dutch hits age 3, I don't think it would be particularly cost effective to go for an all in push. Instead, my idea is to get him to ship Ruyter by pressuring with Sowar.
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Re: ELO ~ 1075 India vs Dutch

Post by Squamiger »

As India, you definitely don't want to stay age 2 as long as possible vs Dutch, imo. Usually, I see people either make 10-15 sepoy with their Agra fort and then age to 3, or make sowars/zams with Karni Mata and then age.

But I think at your ELO, you're still low enough that there are probably bigger problems than the specifics of your build order. Are you keeping constant villager production, keeping villagers working, macroing your resources so you can spend everything before a big fight, and hitting the appropriate timings for things like your age up, your market techs, and your shipments? I'll have a look at the rec tomorrow and see if I can find anything obvious that's off, but these are things to consider.
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Re: ELO ~ 1075 India vs Dutch

Post by Le Hussard sur le toit »

Squamiger wrote:As India, you definitely don't want to stay age 2 as long as possible vs Dutch, imo. Usually, I see people either make 10-15 sepoy with their Agra fort and then age to 3, or make sowars/zams with Karni Mata and then age.

But I think at your ELO, you're still low enough that there are probably bigger problems than the specifics of your build order. Are you keeping constant villager production, keeping villagers working, macroing your resources so you can spend everything before a big fight, and hitting the appropriate timings for things like your age up, your market techs, and your shipments? I'll have a look at the rec tomorrow and see if I can find anything obvious that's off, but these are things to consider.
Most importantly, do you split your villagers on crates ?
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Re: ELO ~ 1075 India vs Dutch

Post by SamFisher101 »

SamFisher101 wrote:I was just thinking about this over dinner, and here's my take:
- Dutch age 2 objective is to survive and get to age 3 as fast as possible. In that respect, delaying his age up is critical. One factor that I want to point out here is my rather late age up time (despite collecting a treasure). I think India needs to age up before the Dutch to be able to pressure them early with sepoy.
- On the Gurkha + Zam + Sowar composition: While the Gurkha is slightly outranged by the skirmisher (18 vs 20), India's objective is for the game to remain in age 2 for as long as possible. This means most of my resources would go to creating units, while Dutch ideally ships 700g to age up behind a small batch of pikes + skirm. Making more Gurkha would either force more skirm from him or force him to build a stable and make a few hussar if he is really impatient. Hussar costs more, so this would further increase his age up timing. This is where the zams come in. If I can have 25-30% of my army to consist of Zam and the rest Gurkha + Sowar, I can effectively delay his age up by always pressuring him in his base.
- Effect of this decision in age 3: Once Dutch hits age 3, I don't think it would be particularly cost effective to go for an all in push. Instead, my idea is to get him to ship Ruyter by pressuring with Sowar.
Guess what I meant to say was to keep the game in age 2 for as long as possible as it only gets better for India. Yes, I am still finding macro very hard to master, especially under pressure. While early pressure in my base was not a factor here, raids from cavalry really throw me off my gathering and macro. Sure! I'd certainly like to hear your thoughts on the game!
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Re: ELO ~ 1075 India vs Dutch

Post by fei123456 »

Why not sowar+gurkha?
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Re: ELO ~ 1075 India vs Dutch

Post by SamFisher101 »

fei123456 wrote:Why not sowar+gurkha?
That would work great as long as he doesn't make a stable somewhere and pops 5 hussar out. I think adding in some zam helps in that case. Even here, with that composition, i would not use sepoy because they will be focused down by the skirms and then RIP gurkha.
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Re: ELO ~ 1075 India vs Dutch

Post by callentournies »

1075 Elo just learn to use hot keys to make vills, spend res, get market upgrades, send reasonable cards, and don’t fight while aging.
If I were a petal
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Re: ELO ~ 1075 India vs Dutch

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Shameless advertising here
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Re: ELO ~ 1075 India vs Dutch

Post by don_artie »

SamFisher101 wrote:my sowar melted
ah you chose the magicians
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Re: ELO ~ 1075 India vs Dutch

Post by SamFisher101 »

Hazza54321 wrote:Shameless advertising here
Just what the doctor ordered. :P
High level play certainly has insane APM + flawless macro. Even cav raids dont disrupt the timings too much lol.
Watching the video now, is starting out with a TP that early worth it as India? Or is it something that you improvised on the go?
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Re: ELO ~ 1075 India vs Dutch

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Post by I_HaRRiiSoN_I »

Hi Sam thanks for the recorded game, I thought i'd review this. Im just commenting on everything i see and hopefully you can get a few wins moving on :)

p.s. some of these things are india (and this MU) specific and maybe overly to in depth for this level of play, i dont know if this is your main civ or not.

1) Your age 1 is lookingfine, some india players like to send all starting vills to wood then any new vill goes to food with that vill herding in the starting hunt ( isaw you backherded the starting hunt :P)
2) India has 2 fast explorers with good line of sight, you SHOULD have your elephants close together but never on top of each other as you are double scouting the same patch of land. if elephants were like "horizontally" 10 metres apart and both heading along the same direction, they will scout twice the amount of the map, this uncovers more treasuresand quickly reinforce each other due to explorers or treasures.
3) may be worth to practice taking treaures as india in an offline game, the goal is to stun animals close together so that they both take each ele's splash damage
4) the forward agra is delayed. If you watch back then you will notice this. Idea is push a vill forward when you have 600f so that when you have the full 800f, that vill is somewhere mid map. this means youve aged maybe 20-30 secs late which is huge in this MU.

Now im quickly going to talk about MU from dutch side: Dutch has seen india going agra so know there is infantry coming. barracks was already down so made 5 pike and the full skrims. dutch will try to send 700w 1BW 600w if not pressured and try to age after having about 10-15 skirms out. It quite hard for dutch to go early great coats and not effect their build pace and unit production.

5) first card was 5 sepoys for a 12 sepoy push but you didnt go in. If you to his tc and idle his vills he can not train any more skirms. your 2 calavry explorers tank a lot of skirm tc fire and can stun kill groups of skirms so have a little more of an aggro mindset with those 2 units. they move faster than sepoys so maybe control them seperately.
6) 4 sowar card is incredible in this MU early. I think the win was on if you opened 4 sowar + 7 sepoy or went 5sepoy (card) into 4 sowar (card). This incredibly hard to hold at this elo level.

7) so the inital age 2 ddint go to plan not much damge was done but its ok you are following up with a nice timing attack (train + shipped sowars, otto cons and the remaining sepoys) ....
7.1) ..... but the fight didnt go well. you tried to move all you cav behind his pike line on the skirms but your opponent who had control groups commanded his pikes to back and skirms to go forward. now the army is caught by the pikes and the game is basically over. a tip here would be to have the cav charge the front line forcing the pikes to fight but as soon as the pikes stop to fight the calvary runs back tanking the skirm damage and letting your sepoys get a volley offf on the pikes, repeat 3 or 4 times and then go in after. simply charging the main army from the front can also work due to your infantry shootin at his pikes and that you a large number of cav who could have just survuved long enough to then go onto the skirms after the pike has gone down.

@SamFisher101

8) final thoughts, sepoys are great units to open with but gurkas would do so much better in this game. mainly more range and damge when attacking pikes. and more effective ranged HP while vs skirms (as dutch skirms wreck sepoys due to x2 multiplier).
I encourage to re watch this rec back with these points to mind :)
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Re: ELO ~ 1075 India vs Dutch

Post by Hazza54321 »

SamFisher101 wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:Shameless advertising here
Just what the doctor ordered. :P
High level play certainly has insane APM + flawless macro. Even cav raids dont disrupt the timings too much lol.
Watching the video now, is starting out with a TP that early worth it as India? Or is it something that you improvised on the go?
My video is abit outdated to how i play it. Normally i age agra but still stable start. On tp maps i stagecoach and go for a sowar gurkha 3 huss timing just before dutch hits up. Usually something like 700w big trickle 300 export 4 sowar and right click with 3 huss from cons too. Then either camel attaxk and gather for age up/mass age 2 or just 700g to up. I tend to build a tp in transition rather than at the start, i may have gone for it because early wood treasure maybe, i don’t remember. But yeah i tend to start first batch sowars if they rax start and first batch zambs if they stable. Then mix in 5-10 gurkhas to snipe pikes.
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Re: ELO ~ 1075 India vs Dutch

Post by SamFisher101 »

I_HaRRiiSoN_I wrote:Hi Sam thanks for the recorded game, I thought i'd review this. Im just commenting on everything i see and hopefully you can get a few wins moving on :)

p.s. some of these things are india (and this MU) specific and maybe overly to in depth for this level of play, i dont know if this is your main civ or not.

1) Your age 1 is lookingfine, some india players like to send all starting vills to wood then any new vill goes to food with that vill herding in the starting hunt ( isaw you backherded the starting hunt :P)
2) India has 2 fast explorers with good line of sight, you SHOULD have your elephants close together but never on top of each other as you are double scouting the same patch of land. if elephants were like "horizontally" 10 metres apart and both heading along the same direction, they will scout twice the amount of the map, this uncovers more treasuresand quickly reinforce each other due to explorers or treasures.
3) may be worth to practice taking treaures as india in an offline game, the goal is to stun animals close together so that they both take each ele's splash damage
4) the forward agra is delayed. If you watch back then you will notice this. Idea is push a vill forward when you have 600f so that when you have the full 800f, that vill is somewhere mid map. this means youve aged maybe 20-30 secs late which is huge in this MU.

Now im quickly going to talk about MU from dutch side: Dutch has seen india going agra so know there is infantry coming. barracks was already down so made 5 pike and the full skrims. dutch will try to send 700w 1BW 600w if not pressured and try to age after having about 10-15 skirms out. It quite hard for dutch to go early great coats and not effect their build pace and unit production.

5) first card was 5 sepoys for a 12 sepoy push but you didnt go in. If you to his tc and idle his vills he can not train any more skirms. your 2 calavry explorers tank a lot of skirm tc fire and can stun kill groups of skirms so have a little more of an aggro mindset with those 2 units. they move faster than sepoys so maybe control them seperately.
6) 4 sowar card is incredible in this MU early. I think the win was on if you opened 4 sowar + 7 sepoy or went 5sepoy (card) into 4 sowar (card). This incredibly hard to hold at this elo level.

7) so the inital age 2 ddint go to plan not much damge was done but its ok you are following up with a nice timing attack (train + shipped sowars, otto cons and the remaining sepoys) ....
7.1) ..... but the fight didnt go well. you tried to move all you cav behind his pike line on the skirms but your opponent who had control groups commanded his pikes to back and skirms to go forward. now the army is caught by the pikes and the game is basically over. a tip here would be to have the cav charge the front line forcing the pikes to fight but as soon as the pikes stop to fight the calvary runs back tanking the skirm damage and letting your sepoys get a volley offf on the pikes, repeat 3 or 4 times and then go in after. simply charging the main army from the front can also work due to your infantry shootin at his pikes and that you a large number of cav who could have just survuved long enough to then go onto the skirms after the pike has gone down.

@SamFisher101

8) final thoughts, sepoys are great units to open with but gurkas would do so much better in this game. mainly more range and damge when attacking pikes. and more effective ranged HP while vs skirms (as dutch skirms wreck sepoys due to x2 multiplier).
I encourage to re watch this rec back with these points to mind :)
@I_HaRRiiSoN_I Thanks for those detailed comments! Yes, India is my main civ. Currently playing only 1 civ to cement macro/micro techniques.
- Age up delay w/ Agra put me in a very defensive mindset, as he was up close to a minute sooner than I was. That made me think he might have had more skirm than he actually did. I could have pushed in with the explorers and still survived.
- I can certainly see why the Gurkha is a better unit in this MU. Empirically, I've seen way more success with a Gurkha + shipped sepoy + trained sowar to transition into a Gurkha + Zam + sowar composition, as I don't have to get shot in the back trying to back out of a bad position and take too many losses (unless i mis-micro the Zam and that's a different story :P).
- Your tip on how to handle heavy infantry in combo with skirm using my cav is golden. I have never tried that approach before. Something to work at for sure!
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Re: ELO ~ 1075 India vs Dutch

Post by Le Hussard sur le toit »

Hazza54321 wrote:
SamFisher101 wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:Shameless advertising here
Just what the doctor ordered. :P
High level play certainly has insane APM + flawless macro. Even cav raids dont disrupt the timings too much lol.
Watching the video now, is starting out with a TP that early worth it as India? Or is it something that you improvised on the go?
My video is abit outdated to how i play it. Normally i age agra but still stable start. On tp maps i stagecoach and go for a sowar gurkha 3 huss timing just before dutch hits up. Usually something like 700w big trickle 300 export 4 sowar and right click with 3 huss from cons too. Then either camel attaxk and gather for age up/mass age 2 or just 700g to up. I tend to build a tp in transition rather than at the start, i may have gone for it because early wood treasure maybe, i don’t remember. But yeah i tend to start first batch sowars if they rax start and first batch zambs if they stable. Then mix in 5-10 gurkhas to snipe pikes.
This is something I've been wondering for a long time : why is a TP in transition not standard with India since they have some pretty powerful shipments with the +1 vill.
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Re: ELO ~ 1075 India vs Dutch

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Post by iamturk »

Do forward agra, put all your vills on food ship 700w then 600w spam rajputs and ship 4sowars as a third shipment and push him. If that doesnt work on your elo, find me.
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Re: ELO ~ 1075 India vs Dutch

Post by Squamiger »

Le Hussard sur le toit wrote:
This is something I've been wondering for a long time : why is a TP in transition not standard with India since they have some pretty powerful shipments with the +1 vill.
im guessing because it's just too slow vs a lot of civs. Against dutch and ports and maybe spain it can work because you don't expect early pressure. But imagine if Indian goes early TP in that game incog just posted where he shows an all-in Brit rush. It would just be over very quickly.
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Re: ELO ~ 1075 India vs Dutch

Post by Kanoo »

Does Royal Green Jackets add a +1 multiplier vs HI alone or also against goons like repelling volley?
thebritish wrote: ↑
19 Jan 2016, 09:58
So, you are saying that if i watch H20's rec, i can beat anyone below H20's level because i know his BO?
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Re: ELO ~ 1075 India vs Dutch

Post by helln00 »

Kanoo wrote:Does Royal Green Jackets add a +1 multiplier vs HI alone or also against goons like repelling volley?
only against HI i think, only china gets that extra multi against goons
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Re: ELO ~ 1075 India vs Dutch

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

Kanoo wrote:Does Royal Green Jackets add a +1 multiplier vs HI alone or also against goons like repelling volley?
Only HI. Which is why you shouldn't have it in every deck - only in matchups against civilizations which use HI.
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Re: ELO ~ 1075 India vs Dutch

Post by Kanoo »

Thanks guys!
thebritish wrote: ↑
19 Jan 2016, 09:58
So, you are saying that if i watch H20's rec, i can beat anyone below H20's level because i know his BO?
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Re: ELO ~ 1075 India vs Dutch

Post by Kanoo »

Also, do y'all have 3 Mahouts in your deck with their abysmal pathing, or would you go for 6 Sowars instead?
thebritish wrote: ↑
19 Jan 2016, 09:58
So, you are saying that if i watch H20's rec, i can beat anyone below H20's level because i know his BO?
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Re: ELO ~ 1075 India vs Dutch

Post by chris1089 »

Kanoo wrote:Also, do y'all have 3 Mahouts in your deck with their abysmal pathing, or would you go for 6 Sowars instead?
Neither personally I think.
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Re: ELO ~ 1075 India vs Dutch

Post by rsy »

Kanoo wrote:Also, do y'all have 3 Mahouts in your deck with their abysmal pathing, or would you go for 6 Sowars instead?
I like having 3 mahouts in the deck. The idea is to pop them from your shipping point directly onto opponent army.

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