User avatar
France kami_ryu
ESOC Community Team
Posts: 1540
ESO: kami_ryu & incognoto
Location: Denver, CO, USA, Earth, Milky Way, Virgo Supercluster

26 Feb 2018, 18:28

Welcome to MU of the week. Every week a thread will be opened where we go over a certain match, set on a certain map. Hopefully the discussion will be in depth and top players will share their insight. Replays are definitely welcome so that people may support what they have to say. To make things even more interesting and engaging, we'll set the match-up on a certain map.

This week's featured match-up is Dutch versus British, the map is Hudson Bay.

Image

---

You can vote on next week's thread here: https://goo.gl/forms/aJaEGXaIIxYi19kO2

You can find a list of ESOC maps here: maps.php

Here the match up table: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

---

Welcome! Credit for this idea goes to @lemmings121 as well as @musketeer925 & @BrookG building upon it. They are the masterminds behind this pretty nice idea!
seed & germination
User avatar
Brazil lemmings121
Jaeger
Posts: 2020
ESO: lemmings121

26 Feb 2018, 18:35

huss semi vs huss semi?
or can someone pull the trigger and go for late colo?
maybe brits playing lb pike?
User avatar
Kiribati SirCallen
Gendarme
Posts: 6318
ESO: KTRAlN
Location: Midwest best west

26 Feb 2018, 18:42

VC + 10 boat boom pike semi. Why not? 700w, 600w, 5 vill. Longbow, goon, huss.

In that MU I'm afraid of running out of hunts. The dock is going to mitigate this. Shit, make Cree CDB too. All EP Dutch players do is 5 bank wank.
thank god for threads
and good screws
User avatar
Poland pecelot
Retired Contributor
Donator 03
Posts: 8727
ESO: Pezet
Location: Warsaw, Poland

26 Feb 2018, 18:45

I'd go for schooners + VC + Cree TP as Brith
the game usually ends before the 12th minute mark, one player is forced to resign — guess, which one :maniac:
Jeder Klaps — ein Japs :chinese:
Greece tedere12
Jaeger
Posts: 2893
ESO: Tedere12
Location: Greece
Game: AoE Online
GameRanger ID: 4253320

26 Feb 2018, 19:06

On this mu I'd go fb pike start 700w 600w always. I'd argue tower start for a) quick steel traps in age2, b)safer base in case you get pushed in age2 and also c)is a forward shipment point so good for an agressive timing. You will have to mix longbows after you have 10 pikes out to harass villagers and counter skirmishers or ruyters in case of an ageup. after 600w you can 5 vills or 700 coin imo. Depends on how much damage you have caused to your opponent. If your opponent is aging and has managed to get away with a decent bank boom, 700 coin for hussar switch is better, to get a 5 hussar batch and push to deal some damage and maybe finish the game.

Some dutch players don't train units, they send CM and go for a quick age3. This is imo good for british because on this map you can water boom or take cree tps and go for max greed and outmass them. Following them in age3 is optional, maybe risky if you fall behind in the RI count.

If you lose too many pikes in age2 you might get countered by a skirm hus composition by dutch, which is countering lb pike. This shouldn't happen because you outmass dutch in age2 as british.

As dutch I'm always trying to sneak in an ageup and try to raid hard if my enemy is infantry rushing me (700w bank wagon 600w/8pikes/700coin) and maybe push in age 2 if I have a chance to do so.

Anyways the situation where dutch wins the game is when you run out of hunts as british/when you miscalculate the enemy unit composition/when your longbow count is too low. Dutch have a hard time countering a big longbow mass. British win with eco play and controlling the map. Trying to finish the game early is not suggested imo unless you see dutch going very greedy.
Image
User avatar
Germany yemshi
Jaeger
Posts: 2056
ESO: yemshi
Location: Germany

26 Feb 2018, 19:25

pecelot wrote:I'd go for schooners + VC + Cree TP as Brith
the game usually ends before the 12th minute mark, one player is forced to resign — guess, which one :maniac:

You?
User avatar
France kami_ryu
ESOC Community Team
Posts: 1540
ESO: kami_ryu & incognoto
Location: Denver, CO, USA, Earth, Milky Way, Virgo Supercluster

26 Feb 2018, 20:08

I honestly don't know if British wins this so easily but I mean I don't really know either civilization.
seed & germination
User avatar
Bavaria j_t_kirk
Lancer
Posts: 562
ESO: j_t_kirk
Location: Kingdom of Bavaria

26 Feb 2018, 20:35

Did you post the old link? It says that I voted already, but I didn't. @kami_ryu
Image Image Image
User avatar
France kami_ryu
ESOC Community Team
Posts: 1540
ESO: kami_ryu & incognoto
Location: Denver, CO, USA, Earth, Milky Way, Virgo Supercluster

26 Feb 2018, 20:37

j_t_kirk wrote:Did you post the old link? It says that I voted already, but I didn't. @kami_ryu

Sorry about that, should be reset now. I use the same form every week and just get rid of responses. :P
seed & germination
User avatar
Bavaria j_t_kirk
Lancer
Posts: 562
ESO: j_t_kirk
Location: Kingdom of Bavaria

26 Feb 2018, 20:43

Thx :smile:
Image Image Image
User avatar
Netherlands edeholland
ESOC Community Team
Donator 01
Posts: 2882
ESO: edeholland
Location: Not ede
GameRanger ID: 4053888

26 Feb 2018, 21:14

Could you update the matchup table with links to the older matchups? So that we get a strategy wall like thingy?
Whiteboards are remarkable
Not living in Ede
--- h2o Rip ---
In the beginning ESOC was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
User avatar
France Kaiserklein
Gendarme
EWT - Playoff
Posts: 5457
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

26 Feb 2018, 21:43

Brits kind of dictate this match up. They just win it because they're faster, scale better, and dutch has a hard time countering lbs and/or the 2 falcs shipment (if you ever go fortress as brits).
I'd say there's basically 3 ways to play it as brits. Dutch needs to adapt and counter if they want to have a chance.

- Stable start into double rax musks. Basically, brits can easily mass from 2 buildings pretty early, and even 3 slightly later, while dutch has problems with that. Starting with cav usually forces dutch to defend with cav as well. Brits can do the 500f age up with 5v first cav start and get 5/5/5 batches of huss or so, which is hard for dutch to handle. With 700w next they can slam 2 raxes forward, getting mapcontrol as well as a quick musketeers switch. If dutch started stable, it will be hard to hold this musk switch in colo. If they're aging, they probably can't hold either. If they started pikes, they will probably just lose because they won't have a lot of huss to block, pikes are just shitty, and because investing wood into pikes hurts dutch a lot. If they ff, they get idled forever and just lose.
Possible card order: 5v (cav start) 700w (2 raxes) 600w (more manors) 700g (big batches) 6 musks or upgrade (for the timing).

- Lb pike start into lb pike huss. Again, dutch can't really start with 2 buildings. Theoretically, skirm cav shits on lb pike. But since they will get only huss or skirms out early on, they will have problems to deal with that pressure. And when they start mixing another buiding in, brits will probably have huss otw already. And when you start to have a big mass of longbows, it gets pretty hard to counter for dutch.
Possible card order: 700w (second rax) 600w (lb pike spam and a stable) 700g (big huss batches) 6 lbs (for the timing) or 5v (if you don't think you need the 6 lbs)

- Semi ff stuff. I'm not a huge fan of brit semi in this mu, but it probably works. Cav semi is probably the best, because you can build stable in base and still be able to pressure dutch. Lb pike semi probably implies a fb, which is kind of risky. Might just 5 pikes semi if dutch starts stable. Can ship VC in age 1, or even 3v + VC with tp start. Either way, you go lb goon huss in fort, and get 2 falcs pretty early because dutch can't really deal with them.


I didn't talk especially about hudson bay because imo brits anyway win the match up and the map being hudson bay doesn't matter much. But like it was said already, brits can also go for cree tp (cheap manors + train cdbs) and/or water boom against a campy dutch. So just another way for brits to beat a passive dutch player.


P.S: One thing brits never want to do in this match up imo: musks start. Obviously starting musks against a civ that can scout your rax(es) and start skirms is not the greatest idea.
My YouTube channel

LoOk_tOm: I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..

Image
User avatar
France bwinner1
Lancer
Posts: 571
ESO: bwinner

27 Feb 2018, 00:28

Kaiserklein wrote:Brits kind of dictate this match up. They just win it because they're faster, scale better, and dutch has a hard time countering lbs and/or the 2 falcs shipment (if you ever go fortress as brits).
I'd say there's basically 3 ways to play it as brits. Dutch needs to adapt and counter if they want to have a chance.

- Stable start into double rax musks. Basically, brits can easily mass from 2 buildings pretty early, and even 3 slightly later, while dutch has problems with that. Starting with cav usually forces dutch to defend with cav as well. Brits can do the 500f age up with 5v first cav start and get 5/5/5 batches of huss or so, which is hard for dutch to handle. With 700w next they can slam 2 raxes forward, getting mapcontrol as well as a quick musketeers switch. If dutch started stable, it will be hard to hold this musk switch in colo. If they're aging, they probably can't hold either. If they started pikes, they will probably just lose because they won't have a lot of huss to block, pikes are just shitty, and because investing wood into pikes hurts dutch a lot. If they ff, they get idled forever and just lose.
Possible card order: 5v (cav start) 700w (2 raxes) 600w (more manors) 700g (big batches) 6 musks or upgrade (for the timing).

- Lb pike start into lb pike huss. Again, dutch can't really start with 2 buildings. Theoretically, skirm cav shits on lb pike. But since they will get only huss or skirms out early on, they will have problems to deal with that pressure. And when they start mixing another buiding in, brits will probably have huss otw already. And when you start to have a big mass of longbows, it gets pretty hard to counter for dutch.
Possible card order: 700w (second rax) 600w (lb pike spam and a stable) 700g (big huss batches) 6 lbs (for the timing) or 5v (if you don't think you need the 6 lbs)

- Semi ff stuff. I'm not a huge fan of brit semi in this mu, but it probably works. Cav semi is probably the best, because you can build stable in base and still be able to pressure dutch. Lb pike semi probably implies a fb, which is kind of risky. Might just 5 pikes semi if dutch starts stable. Can ship VC in age 1, or even 3v + VC with tp start. Either way, you go lb goon huss in fort, and get 2 falcs pretty early because dutch can't really deal with them.


I didn't talk especially about hudson bay because imo brits anyway win the match up and the map being hudson bay doesn't matter much. But like it was said already, brits can also go for cree tp (cheap manors + train cdbs) and/or water boom against a campy dutch. So just another way for brits to beat a passive dutch player.


P.S: One thing brits never want to do in this match up imo: musks start. Obviously starting musks against a civ that can scout your rax(es) and start skirms is not the greatest idea.

The 2 firsts are pretty all in builds. Some precisions : I would choose the tower age up for the musk huss build, bc tower is à have to for 6musk timing (better than upgrades for your build Imo bc is you have like 15-20 musk and 10 huss, 6 musk is much better) but the 500f for lb/pikes bc 200g are not needed early on.

I like the huss/musk build but it loses to cm semi Imo.
Idk about the on/pike build : you won't do shit early on with this units vs turtled dutch (pike are rly weak to TC fire, so you can't siege). Then you won't have a very Big mass at your timing bc building 3 buildings and massing with the 700/600 is rly à no eco build (you can't masse from 3 buildings that early, even with 700g). And so I doubt it works. I would rather do 700w/5v/600w/700g/cavHP

I like the semi ff build.
Image
User avatar
France Kaiserklein
Gendarme
EWT - Playoff
Posts: 5457
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

27 Feb 2018, 00:48

Well that's because the build is a bit low eco (not really all in it's still brits and you can still ship 5v later) that you outmass dutch hard and he probably won't hold
My YouTube channel

LoOk_tOm: I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..

Image
User avatar
Australia VooDoo_BoSs
Skirmisher
Posts: 116
ESO: VooDoo_BoSs
Location: Australia

27 Feb 2018, 00:58

To add, ELO ladders show 55% of the Brit vs Dutch match-ups won by Brit (over PR 29, games in 2013).

http://aoe3.jpcommunity.com/rating2/stats?t=age3ySP1v1
User avatar
France Kaiserklein
Gendarme
EWT - Playoff
Posts: 5457
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

27 Feb 2018, 01:01

It's on RE though, where dutch were trash. They're better on EP now
My YouTube channel

LoOk_tOm: I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..

Image
User avatar
Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
Donator 02
Posts: 5979
ESO: Garja

27 Feb 2018, 01:32

I think huss musk gives big chances to 2 rax skirm pike to hold or even counterpush.
Huss pike lbow makes more sense to me.
Lbow-pike-huss prob doesn't work on tad because Dutch has bank wagon so can start huss easily and then mix skirms. With some crate after 700w (or just 3 huss) they can spam from 2 buildings for a while. Huss can raid so this puts Brits on the backfoot.
I dunno about the VC semi thing. It probably works but as Dutch player I wouldn't mind a semi FF war.
No Flag umeu
Gendarme
Posts: 8266

27 Feb 2018, 03:58

Vc cree tp cheaper buildings semi ff. Drop 2 more raxes in transition and 2 more stables. 3 rax 2 stable lb goon timing.
User avatar
Israel saveyourskill
Skirmisher
Posts: 143

27 Feb 2018, 04:59

I think you should add what the crate start was and if it's the snow version of it or not as you can't put your outpost close enough to the water to defend it(if it's the snow version). From the picture I would guess snow.
Got Badger Milk?
No Flag greatscythe11
Musketeer
Posts: 56
ESO: greatscythe11

27 Feb 2018, 05:21

When it comes to the choice of anticav vs brit in age 3, is it better to use halbs? Lonbows, yumis and xbows have smaller multipliers vs heavy infantry than vs ranged cavalry. Heavy infantry seems to do well when combined with cav.
User avatar
No Flag britrouga
Musketeer
Posts: 62

27 Feb 2018, 08:30

From my experience as brit, you can either semi ff or do a strong lb/huss/musk timing with mostly lb (because you need the range advantage, you really do).

1) The stable/double rax musk all in is in my opinion the best way to lose the game, eventhough it might work most of the time. Playing this way gives dutch the same eco as you (if not more), and he will have the range advantage, thus with good walls (and maybe even CM but I'm not sure it's needed), he will hold and age, go ruyt/cans (with 1000w), and just win because you can't beat this with in age 2, especially if he walls to protect his canons.

2) There are 2 ways to play the lb/huss timing.
First, you can age at 4:10, build your rax right away, train 5pikes to pressure the dutch guy and add either pikes if he goes stable, or lb if he builds the rax, while booming behind. You want to do something like 700w/5v/600w/6lb and timing with lb/pike/huss in late colonial (he definitely can't age vs this kind of pressure, because pikes will burn his base, and he doesn't get much in age 3 since lb, unlike musks rape both skirm and ruyts).
The second option is VC/700w/600w into a big age 2 timing, this one is of course faster because you get your shipments sooner thanks to the exp VC provides, but you don't have the early pike pressure so your opponent can boom safely, and maybe even age before the timing. If you go for this build, you really need to know what you're doing (you can't overmake lb, and you need to hit at the right time) but it works really well if you can do this. The first option is easier for pr38- players.

3) 5pikes VC semi ff. The point of this is to outboom your opponent, and beat him with a better age 3 army. I think that if you can macro properly this is the best option, because you'll be up at the same time, and he really can't deal with 2 falcs/lb/goon/huss, especially when he's outmassed. The only thing the dutch player can try is going 1000w/1000c in age 3 into culvs/falcs, but he's going to get iddled really hard and his eco will suffer from that so he will lose if the brit scouts it and adds a couple of culvs.
The BO is something like VC/700w/5v/700c/2falcs/ 10lb or 5huss for strong pressure or 1000c for culvs

_________________________________________________________

Now how you should play it as Dutch in my opinion:

1) If you scout an early stable you should be happy, because it probably means musk/huss, in which case you should train 5 pikes, build some walls (make sure the huss can't reach you), maybe send CM (as I said, I'm not sure it's necessary), and age. After holding his age 2 pressure (often you need 9 ruyts 1st), send 1000w and go ruyt/falc because else lb will kill you. BO is something like 700w/bank/600w(/CM), don't forget to buy wood as the market because you'll need it, and as dutch it's worth to do so, and don't make more than 5 pikes.

2) Against lb/pike builds I don't really know what you can do, you can't win in late colonial, but on the other hand you can't age right away because you'll lose your buildings to pike and get iddled forever. You have to try to outplay your opponent, like with huss raids (but that shouldn't work), or with a very good defense (I haven't tested CM in this situation but I don't think it would help). If you reach the 3rd age you want to send 1000w in order to get the falc/ruyt composition.

3) The semi ff is the most straightforward strat, it's where you're the most likely to outplay your opponent (with better macro/micro/strat), but it's also where you're the most likely to get outplayed. You want to go age 3 with a good eco (700w/bank/600w), build a TP from 700w, and then as I explained, go artillery with 1000w/1000c, because it's the only way to beat his unit composition.
User avatar
India princeofcarthage
ESOC Media Team
Posts: 1096
ESO: Sav0rybeef
Location: Milky Way!

27 Feb 2018, 17:42

Here is one of the rec using 5v huss start semi ff canon push

download/file.php?mode=view&id=11599
Attachments
[EP4-2 SP] Lecastete[DU] vs marty1248[BR] - ESOC Hudson Bay.age3yrec
(1.52 MiB) Downloaded 62 times
ESOC Hudson Bay
ESOC Hudson Bay
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 4.2
Length: 18 minutes
Fantastic Friday Showdown
Fantastic Discord : https://discord.gg/69XVRE4
Twitch : https://www.twitch.tv/trgaoe3

Image

#SavetheBeef
User avatar
No Flag britrouga
Musketeer
Posts: 62

27 Feb 2018, 17:58

:( :( :( Do not do the 5v build
User avatar
France Kaiserklein
Gendarme
EWT - Playoff
Posts: 5457
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

27 Feb 2018, 18:11

princeofcarthage wrote:Here is one of the rec using kaiser's 5v huss start semi ff canon push

download/file.php?mode=view&id=11599

That's not my bo btw
My YouTube channel

LoOk_tOm: I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..

Image
User avatar
Brazil macacoalbino
Lancer
Posts: 965
ESO: MacacoAlbino

27 Feb 2018, 19:12

This MU is so brit sided its not even funny. Cheaper boom, better units, dutch cant really punish the ageup unless you stay colonial and hide the units (so he doesnt just mass in age 2 amd win)... nothing more to be said
"Anything can happen. Just throw all of your points on the underdog (...). They are looking more like overdogs this tournament. Haha. A joke." - GS

twitch.tv/chumbo_grosso_

Forum Info

Return to “Strategy”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest