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France kami_ryu
ESOC Community Team
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ESO: kami_ryu & incognoto
Location: Denver, CO, USA, Earth, Milky Way, Virgo Supercluster

26 Mar 2018, 17:37

Welcome to MU of the week. Every week a thread will be opened where we go over a certain match, set on a certain map. Hopefully the discussion will be in depth and top players will share their insight. Replays are definitely welcome so that people may support what they have to say. To make things even more interesting and engaging, we'll set the match-up on a certain map.

This week's featured match-up is Aztec versus Ottoman, the map is Baja California.

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You can vote on next week's thread here: https://goo.gl/forms/aJaEGXaIIxYi19kO2

You can find a list of ESOC maps here: maps.php

Here the match up table: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

As well as a list of every thread: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=13821

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Welcome! Credit for this idea goes to @lemmings121 as well as @musketeer925 & @BrookG building upon it. They are the masterminds behind this pretty nice idea!
seed & germination
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Brazil Majora_
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ESO: Majora_

26 Mar 2018, 17:52

this map always delivers good games, i think ottomansd go for some FF build, right?
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France [Armag] diarouga
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Location: France

26 Mar 2018, 18:16

Really interesting match up, I worked a lot on this one like 1 year ago and came to the conclusion that it was actually quite random (because there is no "perfect" strategy which counters every others like in most MUs), so you have to make a gamble and hope your strat counters your opponent's.

About the map
The map is pretty big, so often you'll want to be rather defensive, but not too much because you need to take the 3 TPs which are in the middle of the map

About the strats

Otto

1) Jan/abus : This is the "most standard" in a way, which is actually not that good since it's the one your opponent is the most likely to counter. It relies on having a decent eco (nearly as good as aztec's), while having a strong unit composition, and a decent middle game. It's quite easy to do, and the micro is frankly not hard, so it can do well if you know you're better than your opponent and you don't need to outplay him, but on the other hand, it can be a bit awkward if your opponent goes for a lot of maces/coyotes because it should counter the jan/abus composition, eventhough coyotes die very fast to both jan and abus, and are really slow to kill the abus.
BO: 2nd TP while aging, rax+stagecoach from 400w 700w/700c/600c for jan/abus spam

2) Jan/huss: About the same as jan/abus, except this time you counter the coyote/mace very hard, and auto win (or otto win :D ), if he goes for a blind coyote/mace. It's a lot less effective than jan/abus in straight up fights if the aztec scouts it however, as jan/huss really sucks vs mace/pike, so against a good opponent who scouts it, you'll have to rely on mechanics, and on strong raids to match your opponent's eco.
BO: Same as jan/abus, try to hide your stable (even proxy between the water and the cliffs on this map maybe), so that he doesn't start with pikes.

3) ff: The most defensive strat. As I said, it's a bet to take, because if the opponent goes for some heavy colonial play, it's almost a free win because he will have to trade all his army for the 2 falcs, and then he won't have shit to hold the mameluke time. However, if he goes for some very agressive builds (all in rush), his pikes will just burn your town and even with good micro you probably won't hold.
BO: 2nd TP while aging, age with the tower, 700c/700w/2falcs/8jans (push if you lost a TP else you can wait)/1k coin/mams (2nd timing)

Aztecs

1) Rush:
This is underestimated in this MU, because the Jan/abus build is the most standard, and the azzy rush gets countered really hard by that (you won't have enough units to damage him, and in middle game he'll shit on you since you won't have the critical mace/coyote mass to deal with his army. Still, against Jan/huss it's great because your pikes will do a lot: burn some houses/TPs..., and in by the time he recovers you'll have enough maces/pikes to kill his army.
BO: fast age up, wh asap/700w for a TP+houses, gather food+coin in order to train pikes/10maces/9maces, next shipment is either 3wp for an eco transition, or 6pikes if you think you can do something with them.

2) The Caria build http://www.rts-sanctuary.com/Age-Of-Emp ... pic=219301
" Aztecs dual war hut"
This one is specially designed to counter the jan/abus, and it indeed does. However, against jan/huss you'll be in trouble (you can still win by scouting it and transitioning the strat into mace/pike, but you'll be slightly behind I think), and against the ff, you just lose because your timing is way too slow to punish the ff and you can't deal with the falcs (it makes sense as the strat was designed to counter the middle game jan/abus timing).

3) The Rouga build: My favourite one, because imo it's the most adaptive one.
It counters the jan/abus play imo (not as well as the Caria build, but still), and does ok against the jan/huss build, unless your opponent knows from the start what you're doing and goes for some proxy fb all in builds, which are heavily countered by anything else aztecs can do.
Against ff it's a bit harder, and you'll probably be behind, but by aging yourself you can survive and win.
BO: fast age up, house while aging, then 10v on the firepit/3wp, get enough exp for the 2nd colonial shipment then switch to priest dance/700w.
From 700w build a warhut, a TP and houses as well as a market and hunting dogs.

From here you should adapt: if you're facing a jan/abus you should probably send 600w in order to go for a slightly slower Caria build (double wh spam), but with 10 wp for war dance and faster shipments, which means you'll have more in middle game vs the jan/abus timing.
If you're facing a jan/huss, probably send 5v and train a lot of pikes backed with maces shipments and try to win the middle game war, which you should be able to do with your insane shipment spam.
If you're facing a ff, go 5v/600c, wall, age with the 2 noble huts, make a lot of maces, and in age 3 send 6 eagles, and make 5 arrow knight from a noble hut in order to deal with the 2 falcs. If you can take out the falcs without losing too much, a good mace/eagle mass with the war dance should hold the mam timing.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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26 Mar 2018, 18:18

Majora_ wrote:this map always delivers good games, i think ottomansd go for some FF build, right?

Yes, if you had to make a blind call, I think ff would be the most solid, but since it's the best on this map, your opponent might blind counter it.
Also it's the easiest to scout because tower means ff.
Great Britain Hazza54321
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Posts: 4429

26 Mar 2018, 18:31

I feel like otto just wins with jan abus with 3 huss and later mixing huss
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Italy Garja
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26 Mar 2018, 18:53

The problem with anything too passive that is also not super boomy is FI or even revo.
Rush can work with good age1 plus good scouting. You basically control the game at every moment and try to counter w/e happens step by step.
Blind coyo/mace should work vs most colonial strats but since you don't have siege it's hard to punish an age or punish something defensive in general. Notably otto can go hard on huss and keep the spam for several batches and Aztecs somehow struggle vs that unless they go heavy on puma (and even then they can't do too much because of mm, 5 jans and then some abus.
The WP boom is probably the most reliable strat simply because it's a solid strat that you can adapt to counter what otto does. Need to be careful against FI or revo tho. In that case one thing that actually works is aging up and going full eagle+arrows with gold crates. Arrows in mass do extremely well vs anything otto has, included CM, abus and bombards. Also because of the high hp they give the time to eagles to kill the imp huss from the back.
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Brazil lemmings121
Jaeger
Posts: 2019
ESO: lemmings121

26 Mar 2018, 18:56

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Also it's the easiest to scout because tower means ff.


why not 400w ff?

it makes it harder to scout (most people will scout 400w and start searching for the hidden fb, and ofter will have to gamble on weather you are rushing all in or not). yes without the tower you are weaker vs a allin rush, but vs everything else, 400w helps a lot more then 200g.
Great Britain WickedCossack
Retired Contributor
Posts: 1562

26 Mar 2018, 20:24

I gave my otto vs aztec water EP build to @KINGofOsmane for his tournament game against Garja with positive results. It's also a lot of fun to use!

The basic idea iirc was build a dock immediately and put all villagers to wood.

-If you start 400w you gather enough wood for 5 boats then put everyone to food, if you start 300w then you only gather for 4 boats.
-Ship 3 vills as first card.
-Once you click to age up put everyone back to wood and make 3 more boats. As soon as you age (should be 4:10-4:30 I think on EP water maps) use the 400w for stable and TP and take everyone off wood and mix food/gold.
-Shipments are 700w -> 700c. Use 700w to make a few houses and the rest of boats (still 1 dock.)
-Make somewhere between 5 and 12 hussar and age off the back of 700c.

In age 3 you can do whatever is needed honestly.

You sacrifice a tiny bit on your age 2 time for a roided eco. Basically only after 5 mins it feels like you're playing regular land ottomans except you randomly have an extra 11 villies subsidizing your eco.
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Brazil macacoalbino
Lancer
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ESO: MacacoAlbino

26 Mar 2018, 20:35

only read diarouga post, sry if this has been answered.
But what about water in this map and MU?
"Anything can happen. Just throw all of your points on the underdog (...). They are looking more like overdogs this tournament. Haha. A joke." - GS

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Austria KINGofOsmane
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ESO: KINGofOsmane
Location: Walling Town

26 Mar 2018, 20:50

WickedCossack wrote:I gave my otto vs aztec water EP build to @KINGofOsmane for his tournament game against Garja with positive results. It's also a lot of fun to use!

The basic idea iirc was build a dock immediately and put all villagers to wood.

-If you start 400w you gather enough wood for 5 boats then put everyone to food, if you start 300w then you only gather for 4 boats.
-Ship 3 vills as first card.
-Once you click to age up put everyone back to wood and make 3 more boats. As soon as you age (should be 4:10-4:30 I think on EP water maps) use the 400w for stable and TP and take everyone off wood and mix food/gold.
-Shipments are 700w -> 700c. Use 700w to make a few houses and the rest of boats (still 1 dock.)
-Make somewhere between 5 and 12 hussar and age off the back of 700c.

In age 3 you can do whatever is needed honestly.

You sacrifice a tiny bit on your age 2 time for a roided eco. Basically only after 5 mins it feels like you're playing regular land ottomans except you randomly have an extra 11 villies subsidizing your eco.

lair its diarougas bo lol
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"If hazza can get pr42 with team i can get pr50 with 1v1" Gibthedurrty 2018
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New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 7563
ESO: Funnu
Location: Ramadanistan

26 Mar 2018, 20:56

Garja wins.

P.S. It's Garja's build-order.
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France bwinner1
Lancer
Posts: 540
ESO: bwinner

26 Mar 2018, 22:09

lemmings121 wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Also it's the easiest to scout because tower means ff.


why not 400w ff?

it makes it harder to scout (most people will scout 400w and start searching for the hidden fb, and ofter will have to gamble on weather you are rushing all in or not). yes without the tower you are weaker vs a allin rush, but vs everything else, 400w helps a lot more then 200g.

I agree bc with 400w you can always transition to à Jan/abus build if you scout an aztec rush, even after sending 700g.
When you are talking with an idiot, he may be doing the same
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France [Armag] diarouga
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27 Mar 2018, 04:35

Hazza54321 wrote:I feel like otto just wins with jan abus with 3 huss and later mixing huss

No, it loses to both the Caria build and my build.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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27 Mar 2018, 04:38

lemmings121 wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Also it's the easiest to scout because tower means ff.


why not 400w ff?

it makes it harder to scout (most people will scout 400w and start searching for the hidden fb, and ofter will have to gamble on weather you are rushing all in or not). yes without the tower you are weaker vs a allin rush, but vs everything else, 400w helps a lot more then 200g.

You can try to mind game your opponent by going 400w, but honestly it's not really worth it because it doesn't give you much, and you simply die to any early agression.
You of course won't deal with the rush, and you probably even lose to a colonial build, so I wouldn't do that.
Finally it's still easy to scout because if you see the opponent doesn't take a 2nd TP while aging and goes 400w, it's either some colonial all in (jan rush or 700c rax/stable rush), or a ff, and in both situations you want to rush.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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27 Mar 2018, 04:40

macacoalbino wrote:only read diarouga post, sry if this has been answered.
But what about water in this map and MU?

It's not really viable.
As aztecs it makes no sense as you can hardly survive even without going water, so don't do it.
As otto you can try it, but the value you'll get from a TP boom or a ff is bigger, and anyway, with a water boom you won't match the Aztec spam so it's not the best thing to do.
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Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
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ESO: Garja

27 Mar 2018, 13:00

Water is actually extremely good and viable as Aztecs. I used to mix that on RE too in this MU and on EP you dont even need schooners.
The point is to set up a great eco for w/e Otto does and then adapt. Having potentially huge eco is key to beat stuff like FI/revo without necessarily countering Otto step by step (which can be tricky because it's about right unit at right moment and Aztecs don't have fast age up anymore if they go for WP boom).
The build I did in tourney is good (3wp 700w 600w 2wh etc). Vs otto colonial you need to adapt with a WH from 700w and/or 600w and then maybe even stopping vill production and spamming warriors if necessary.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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27 Mar 2018, 19:25

Garja wrote:Water is actually extremely good and viable as Aztecs. I used to mix that on RE too in this MU and on EP you dont even need schooners.
The point is to set up a great eco for w/e Otto does and then adapt. Having potentially huge eco is key to beat stuff like FI/revo without necessarily countering Otto step by step (which can be tricky because it's about right unit at right moment and Aztecs don't have fast age up anymore if they go for WP boom).
The build I did in tourney is good (3wp 700w 600w 2wh etc). Vs otto colonial you need to adapt with a WH from 700w and/or 600w and then maybe even stopping vill production and spamming warriors if necessary.

I don't think water is 'extremely good and viable as Aztecs" as you state. It's maybe viable in some niche situations, but I'm pretty sure you can't use it as a standard build, and I think we tested that together some time ago.
Thing is, the water boom is more expensive than a 10wp build, and takes more time to pay off. In the end, you're just slower than a 10wp build, and your middle game eco won't matter because you'll either die before to a colonial play or get starved, or lose the 2 falcs timing.

I agree that against stuff like FI/revo it's good, but let's be real, the otto guy is not going to revo if he sees you're going for a water boom lol.

Anyway, I'm up to test it this week-end.
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Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
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ESO: Garja

27 Mar 2018, 21:28

On EP the 3wp 700w 600w 2wh is the go to build on water maps imo. Or at least on Alaska and Malaysia which have bad trade routes (or not at all). On Baja it's maybe a bit different because opponent can stage coach with similar eco potential for a wide time frame.
I'm talking in general not even just against Otto. Of course against anything more aggressive the build is going to be different. The point is to have some workers on water so that food lasts longer. Against an Otto colonial abus build maybe it's better to skip the dock entirely or limit it to just one while using the rest of wood for a WH. Then again the point of WP+water is to turtle so anything that tryes to break your base plays in your hands
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France [Armag] diarouga
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28 Mar 2018, 04:36

Garja wrote:On EP the 3wp 700w 600w 2wh is the go to build on water maps imo. Or at least on Alaska and Malaysia which have bad trade routes (or not at all). On Baja it's maybe a bit different because opponent can stage coach with similar eco potential for a wide time frame.
I'm talking in general not even just against Otto. Of course against anything more aggressive the build is going to be different. The point is to have some workers on water so that food lasts longer. Against an Otto colonial abus build maybe it's better to skip the dock entirely or limit it to just one while using the rest of wood for a WH. Then again the point of WP+water is to turtle so anything that tryes to break your base plays in your hands

On baja you surely can't water, and we were talking about this map btw.
Anyway, wp+boats is just too greedy.
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United States of America n0el
ESOC Business Team
Posts: 2179
ESO: n0eL

28 Mar 2018, 11:21

Seems like kynesie water alot on this map. Is it the map or aztec specifically going water on this map
Germany lordraphael
Jaeger
EWTDonator 01
Posts: 2019

28 Mar 2018, 11:29

n0el wrote:Seems like kynesie water alot on this map. Is it the map or aztec specifically going water on this map

taking kynesie into account when determing if its a water map or not is pretty silly. This guy even tries to water boom on the little ponds in great plains
breeze wrote:they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Turkey HUMMAN
Dragoon
Posts: 382
ESO: HUMMAN

28 Mar 2018, 13:29

I remember a match in this map raphael vs kynesie and couldnt believe how rafa won.
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France [Armag] diarouga
Gendarme
Posts: 6820
Location: France

28 Mar 2018, 15:13

n0el wrote:Seems like kynesie water alot on this map. Is it the map or aztec specifically going water on this map

As Raph said, kynesie is going to water every time it's possible, so that's not really relevant :P
To answer your question, the map is a very good water map, one of the best "standard" map for this, but Aztec is just a bad water civ, and in this MU specifically, going water is not viable.
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Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
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ESO: Garja

28 Mar 2018, 16:07

Aztecs is a bad water civ? lol
I suppose you ignore the part where vill count goes up to 25 to 60 in like 2 minutes.
Great Britain Hazza54321
Jaeger
Posts: 4429

28 Mar 2018, 16:09

or the fact that their canoes rek every warship on the board
Diarouga: How exactly am I arrogant

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