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France [Armag] diarouga
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25 Apr 2018, 18:21

yemshi wrote:Isn't that fine then? Do you simply want to tweak everything until AoE III: DE comes out just for the sake of it?

Lol, China has been changed, I'm for removing the changes. This time I'm definitely not the gyy who wants to tweak everything.
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France Rikikipu
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25 Apr 2018, 18:45

I've been saying for months that old han should be tweaked. Something like 75% instead of 50% would be ideal
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Kiribati SirCallen
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25 Apr 2018, 18:58

I don't think old Han has become unviable, just that it isn't some auto game winner like it was. It's more niche, I guess, like bastieros or something. I like having a China that doesn't bot old Han immediately in IV but has options to weigh, I think.
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Netherlands momuuu
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25 Apr 2018, 20:07

SirCallen wrote:I don't think old Han has become unviable, just that it isn't some auto game winner like it was. It's more niche, I guess, like bastieros or something. I like having a China that doesn't bot old Han immediately in IV but has options to weigh, I think.

The net result of this change is just that Age 4 is also not really a serious strategy for china. It wasn't even that strong in 1v1.

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New Zealand zoom
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25 Apr 2018, 20:24

Should really just make it 50%/0%, 1000f.
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Canada Mitoe
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25 Apr 2018, 23:52

I think Old Han Reforms is mostly fine now that you don't have to pay for the card. Perhaps the cost increase needs to be tweaked down to 20% or 15%, but in general this card should not equal a free win for China, like it did on previous patches.
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26 Apr 2018, 04:18

zoom wrote:
umeu wrote:
zoom wrote:Every change is unncessary. Both of those changes are good, I think. If anything, Forbidden Army is still overly prevalent, and Chinese is still disproportionately powerful on livestock maps.


so because germany are disproportionately powerful on tp maps, were gonna change german tps too now?

All civs have a map type they excel on, and for china that is livestock maps. China definitely doesn't excel more on livestock maps than tp civs do on tp maps.

imo, if the change was unnecessary, than it's not a good change. they aren't horrible (actually the old han change is horrible atm, the idea was fine, but it needs more tweaking), china is playable without it. but theyre worse for it, while they were never in a position where they needed to be nerfed.
If that were a realistic option that's indeed exactly what we would have done, remember? Chinese definitely did excel more on several livestock maps than TP-civilizations do on TP-maps. 5000f at 9 minutes says "hai".

IMO every change is unncessary. The question is whether a change is desirable and essential enough.


if it's essential, it's necessary in my pov. And it wasn't an essential change.

And there's no way that china improves more by livestock than germany does with a tp, or spain/ports on atp maps. Thing with china was 2 fold, there was one map with a retarded amount of cows, that was easy defendable, and had low hunts. all elements in favor of china. on top of that, china only recently started to emerge as a pretty good civ due to some new builds. So people didn't know how to play vs china. I'm quite sure that china even on the same map pool would be a lot less dominant because more ppl have figured out how to play vs it.

Just being a livestock map doesn't even mean that much, because you still need to get the cows. And on some maps there's no guarantee that china even get's that many. Many civs that do well vs china are also civs that can beat china in age1 livestock search or tres battles.

Anyway, the livestock change is just too much. It should be reduced, but it's ok if it's not reverted all the way back. The cav train time change was just a bad change.
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26 Apr 2018, 04:23

Mitoe wrote:I think Old Han Reforms is mostly fine now that you don't have to pay for the card. Perhaps the cost increase needs to be tweaked down to 20% or 15%, but in general this card should not equal a free win for China, like it did on previous patches.


there's simply no reason to send it now. The 1000f was never really an impediment, so taking it out is totally irrelevant if what you get for it is still not useful. it should indeed be tweaked, in that case it's still not a free win but atleast there would be a reason to send it. Right now, wood just easily runs out. And the territorial units are better, not to mention they actually can be made infinitely, whereas wood will run out at some point. The +4 range that territorial skirs have just make them so much more superior, as well as the fact that territorial armies have a combat upgrade. On top of that, territorial armies have better synergy with the cav army, so there's no need to have awkward macro. Simply 0 reason to not make them on EP when u IV.
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26 Apr 2018, 04:24

SirCallen wrote:I don't think old Han has become unviable, just that it isn't some auto game winner like it was. It's more niche, I guess, like bastieros or something. I like having a China that doesn't bot old Han immediately in IV but has options to weigh, I think.


its just useless actually. Not even niche. Give me one viable situation where you would go old han over territorial?
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Kiribati SirCallen
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26 Apr 2018, 04:25

umeu wrote:
SirCallen wrote:I don't think old Han has become unviable, just that it isn't some auto game winner like it was. It's more niche, I guess, like bastieros or something. I like having a China that doesn't bot old Han immediately in IV but has options to weigh, I think.


its just useless actually. Not even niche. Give me one viable situation where you would go old han over territorial?

When I'm out of mines and want to prove umeu wrong.
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26 Apr 2018, 04:41

umeu wrote:
Mitoe wrote:I think Old Han Reforms is mostly fine now that you don't have to pay for the card. Perhaps the cost increase needs to be tweaked down to 20% or 15%, but in general this card should not equal a free win for China, like it did on previous patches.


there's simply no reason to send it now. The 1000f was never really an impediment, so taking it out is totally irrelevant if what you get for it is still not useful. it should indeed be tweaked, in that case it's still not a free win but atleast there would be a reason to send it. Right now, wood just easily runs out. And the territorial units are better, not to mention they actually can be made infinitely, whereas wood will run out at some point. The +4 range that territorial skirs have just make them so much more superior, as well as the fact that territorial armies have a combat upgrade. On top of that, territorial armies have better synergy with the cav army, so there's no need to have awkward macro. Simply 0 reason to not make them on EP when u IV.

Coin runs out significantly sooner, unless you're making rice paddies for some reason?

The 1000f was definitely a problem on previous iterations of EP. I think it's worth it in a lot of games right now, but Territorial is better if you want the tempo in early Industrial.
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26 Apr 2018, 07:18

SirCallen wrote:
umeu wrote:
SirCallen wrote:I don't think old Han has become unviable, just that it isn't some auto game winner like it was. It's more niche, I guess, like bastieros or something. I like having a China that doesn't bot old Han immediately in IV but has options to weigh, I think.


its just useless actually. Not even niche. Give me one viable situation where you would go old han over territorial?

When I'm out of mines and want to prove umeu wrong.


So explain why you would waste a card to go bow pike that requires 1 tier more upgrades, that has worse stats (arqs +4 range > better ckn attack. changs have better MR than pikes) and worse synergy with your other units? Also, if you didn't straight FF, you most likely don't have any old han units. Instead of shipping old han reforms, you might as well ship 1000w and drop rice paddies. If you go old han, you are just going to get completely zoned out vs any civ that has skirs and vs any player that can micro them.

Now, if old han was an age3 card, then yes, I can see a reason why you would use them. namely, you played age 2 china, aged up with a ton op ckn pike, and then u send old han reforms to improve otherwise obsolete units. But tbh, china already has a card which does exactly that, and probs better.
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26 Apr 2018, 07:21

Mitoe wrote:
umeu wrote:
Mitoe wrote:I think Old Han Reforms is mostly fine now that you don't have to pay for the card. Perhaps the cost increase needs to be tweaked down to 20% or 15%, but in general this card should not equal a free win for China, like it did on previous patches.


there's simply no reason to send it now. The 1000f was never really an impediment, so taking it out is totally irrelevant if what you get for it is still not useful. it should indeed be tweaked, in that case it's still not a free win but atleast there would be a reason to send it. Right now, wood just easily runs out. And the territorial units are better, not to mention they actually can be made infinitely, whereas wood will run out at some point. The +4 range that territorial skirs have just make them so much more superior, as well as the fact that territorial armies have a combat upgrade. On top of that, territorial armies have better synergy with the cav army, so there's no need to have awkward macro. Simply 0 reason to not make them on EP when u IV.

Coin runs out significantly sooner, unless you're making rice paddies for some reason?

The 1000f was definitely a problem on previous iterations of EP. I think it's worth it in a lot of games right now, but Territorial is better if you want the tempo in early Industrial.


on ep maybe, because 50/50 is worthless, and if you charge 1000f for it, it's even worse. But on re it wasn't, and it was definitely worth it. Territorial is simply better always. With 50% better stats, for 50% more cost, the old han units don't have superior stats to the Territorial units. Not if you take into account range and resistance and upgrade cost.

also, if coin runs out on the map, it runs out for everyone. Any civ would transition into mills + plantations here, so why wouldn't china? Why would you send a card just so you can make an inferior unit combo, that's different than the units you've been making before, just so you don't have to make paddies? that seems far fetched to me.
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Kiribati SirCallen
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26 Apr 2018, 07:39

Lol I forgot I cared about aoe, whoops.
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India princeofcarthage
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26 Apr 2018, 08:32

I think if you let a civ specially without fast age up, FI at 11 mins and get away with a 1000 food shipment, that guy deserves a free win. I agree it might be an issue in 3v3 but in 1v1chinese FI is not even the strongest tbh, (RE)
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Kiribati SirCallen
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26 Apr 2018, 09:13

princeofcarthage wrote:I think if you let a civ specially without fast age up, FI at 11 mins and get away with a 1000 food shipment, that guy deserves a free win. I agree it might be an issue in 3v3 but in 1v1chinese FI is not even the strongest tbh, (RE)

You're simplifying it beyond pragmatics.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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26 Apr 2018, 10:18

Yea on the RE jap FI>China FI
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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26 Apr 2018, 10:25

umeu wrote:
Mitoe wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Coin runs out significantly sooner, unless you're making rice paddies for some reason?

The 1000f was definitely a problem on previous iterations of EP. I think it's worth it in a lot of games right now, but Territorial is better if you want the tempo in early Industrial.


on ep maybe, because 50/50 is worthless,
It's 50/25 right now. I wouldn't say sending a card to get imperial stats on 2 units is "worthless". Yes it makes your units more expensive but this is a core feature of the card which makes it better the more units you already have on the field.
In any case, worthless seems overstating it. It's not an autowin anymore, and it shouldn't be. Could tweak to 60/30 though.
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26 Apr 2018, 11:31

Goodspeed wrote:
umeu wrote:
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on ep maybe, because 50/50 is worthless,
It's 50/25 right now. I wouldn't say sending a card to get imperial stats on 2 units is "worthless". Yes it makes your units more expensive but this is a core feature of the card which makes it better the more units you already have on the field.
In any case, worthless seems overstating it. It's not an autowin anymore, and it shouldn't be. Could tweak to 60/30 though.


it's worthless in the sense that you don't want to be making those units. If they were your standard units, then yes, I'd say it's totally fine and not worthless at all. But because they are not units that you would normally make, they have to become better than the units you would normally make, or it's just not worth to send that card, that's what I meant with worthless.

For euro civs, a card like this would actually make more sense, because when mines run out, having a card that boosts your archaic units to become better than your normal units, is actually a great asset in fringe situations. That's because plantations are just so expensive, and skirs cost a lot of coin. But for china this isn't the case, so you might as well make paddies + send a 15% combat upgrade on your territorial instead of sending of sending old han.

And with 50%-25% they're simply not good enough to warrant making them over territorial. This is because of things that don't really factor into the card (upgrades, shadow tech, range, resistance and combo/macro synergy, as well as infinite res mechanic) So yeah, they it needs tweaking. If it was 50-25 and +2 range for CKN and +10% MR for the pike, then it would props become worth it in some cases.
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United States of America Amsel_
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26 Apr 2018, 12:14

Was Old Han reforms actually that OP? It's pretty easy for a strong timing to come in and kill you. It's not that much stronger than an Ottoman fast-revolt, although, I guess you're better off in the long-term since you still have some eco. Considering that most games don't get to industrial, I don't see the point in nerfing one of the few situations they do. It would suck if China just became another 'skirm war' civ like all the others. China is really fun because it's such a high-risk high-reward style civ. Most of their strats revolve around hiding in your base with zero units, and then eventually coming out and attacking your enemy like a force of nature.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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26 Apr 2018, 16:07

Yes as Umeu said, 50% seems good but you have to keep in mind that bow/pike is a bad unit composition.
Pikes are pikes and bows are weaker than skirms.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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26 Apr 2018, 18:12

Keep in mind there are also shipments of 21 ckn and pike, and they are 50% better after sending the card. They don't lose 25% in value.
Can someone list the stats and cost of 50%/25% upped ckn/pike versus arq/changdao?
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France [Armag] diarouga
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26 Apr 2018, 18:38

With age 4 upgrade:

Chu ko nu+ ep old han

162 hp
9 attack => 27 with the rate of fire
16 range
20% RR
53f/40w

Arquebusier without up
145 hp
21 attack
20 range
30% rr
85 gold

PS: Not sure if it's really relevant but chu ko nu sometimes miss.
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Canada Mitoe
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26 Apr 2018, 19:01

Amsel_ wrote:Was Old Han reforms actually that OP? It's pretty easy for a strong timing to come in and kill you. It's not that much stronger than an Ottoman fast-revolt, although, I guess you're better off in the long-term since you still have some eco. Considering that most games don't get to industrial, I don't see the point in nerfing one of the few situations they do. It would suck if China just became another 'skirm war' civ like all the others. China is really fun because it's such a high-risk high-reward style civ. Most of their strats revolve around hiding in your base with zero units, and then eventually coming out and attacking your enemy like a force of nature.

It was 100% hp and attack before. That's equivalent to researching Imperial Chu Ko Nu and Qiang Pikemen--TWICE. ~6000 resource value in upgrades, and you're not even in Imperial. It's safe to say that the card was pretty strong, and despite the units being subpar compared to their Territorial Army counterparts in other ways, this card was just so strong if you ever managed to send it safely or with minimal damage taken that it was practically impossible to lose.

Also worth mentioning for people who do not know about the stats Diarouga posted above: Chu Ko Nu fire 3 bolts with every attack, so that ends up being 9*3 = 27.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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26 Apr 2018, 19:06

Hum yea forgot about that, goona edit.
Still, chu ko nu being more expensive, having to get upgraded twice, and being an awkward unit, it's pretty obvious that wasting an age 4 shipment for them isn't worth anymore.
It should be 60% or 75%/1000f

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