The problem with walls

[Gendarme]

nepuvir sb gVGeG

[deleted_user]

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The reason people complain about walls so much in this game is mostly because they don't know how best to deal with it, and it pulls them outside of their comfort zones. Most people are not super comfortable against water or in the lategame, and this alone usually means easy wins for the experienced waller/water boomer.

This. "I don't know how (and don't want to learn) to beat it, so it must be nerfed or removed from the game altogether". People refuse to adapt their gameplay to their opponent and wonder why they lose.

This is exactly the answer, instead of crying on the forums over and over, try to learn? adapt? best deal imo. what about if majority of community were taking place from players that prefer to go sea boom or walls? we would see threads about in current meta how strong semi ff push or age2 rush against boom is, Maybe we would see "NERF 2 FALCONETS SHIPMENT TO 1 FALCONET ITS NO SKILL FF LOSING HOUSES FOR FREE" Thread By someone? really? just another way of saying I am bad. I dont want to deal with this neither adapt. so remove it from game. so sad

Then how do I boom and counter walls or play the lategame? What if I didnt pick a lategame deck? What if I play a civ that doesn't have strong lategame or water? These are honest questions, which is why I believe that is why turtling has an advantage in that regard. If you aren't prepared to go lategame from the first second it's not likely that you can counter it.

First of all, thanks for proving my point. Back topic, Blackstar was not using tr40 deck to beat kynesie when he beat him, some people like H2o Bsop Samwise Mitoe diarouga Garja, myself, were trying to counter his playstyle. While players like Like Kaiserklein, Lordraphael and some others trying to whine and waste time on forums. Also @Kaiserklein I don't pay attention anymore to competition as before. however I dont think you are a top player to be honest. Its more like blackstar h2o samwise and other top players left the game and that how you came to this. No offence but If i played for win atleast. I could beat you 3-1 or w.e in a bo5. btw I also remember beating your team like endless times and each time you were going flame and sad behaviour. You were the one who stated "Ruyters Are Lame" anyway I wont argue with you here.

[BrookG]

Then how do I boom and counter walls or play the lategame? What if I didnt pick a lategame deck? What if I play a civ that doesn't have strong lategame or water? These are honest questions, which is why I believe that is why turtling has an advantage in that regard. If you aren't prepared to go lategame from the first second it's not likely that you can counter it.

First of all, thanks for proving my point. Back topic, Blackstar was not using tr40 deck to beat kynesie when he beat him, some people like H2o Bsop Samwise Mitoe diarouga Garja, myself, were trying to counter his playstyle. While players like Like Kaiserklein, Lordraphael and some others trying to whine and waste time on forums.

I don't see how I prove you. You state the fact that some players are better or have won against kynesie (walls/water)

[Kaiserklein]

First of all, thanks for proving my point. Back topic, Blackstar was not using tr40 deck to beat kynesie when he beat him, some people like H2o Bsop Samwise Mitoe diarouga Garja, myself, were trying to counter his playstyle. While players like Like Kaiserklein, Lordraphael and some others trying to whine and waste time on forums. Also @Kaiserklein I don't pay attention anymore to competition as before. however I dont think you are a top player to be honest. Its more like blackstar h2o samwise and other top players left the game and that how you came to this. No offence but If i played for win atleast. I could beat you 3-1 or w.e in a bo5. btw I also remember beating your team like endless times and each time you were going flame and sad behaviour. You were the one who stated "Ruyters Are Lame" anyway I wont argue with you here.

The skill difference between us is so obvious that I'm not even gonna answer this. You're just funny
Btw, you took a quote from me, removed the context, and changed its content, and now you use it as an argument. Just shows you're not worth arguing with

[momuuu]

The question should never be if walls are imbalanced or blabla. The problem is that walls make aoe3 lame, they're an effective tool to turn a fun game into a boring game and thus should be removed from the game or nerfed to the point where you can't play a full wall style.

[Gendarme]

nepuvir sb gVGeG

[querty]

(...)I can see how they're not exactly super healthy for the game. They’re relatively easy to use effectively with minimal practice, and disincentivize you from interacting with your opponent (...)

I think for me personally it is this. Even if the balance issues might not be as big as they seem for some people walls can still be a problem imho. On the one hand you have to see the whole balance thing different at lower level games and cannot expect people to have the same game knowledge you have. I think walls MIGHT me more broken at those lower level (team) games. On the other hand, and that one is the important bit, even if their balance is perfectly fine, I fell like Interaction and the small encounters are what makes this game intersting to watch and fun to play. If I think of the most fun and entertaining games to watch, I just never think about a 40 minute turtle game...

[Garja]

The argument "I dont like/know how to play vs walls and in lategame" only applies to a certain extent.
The extent might very well be in almost all cases except when you actually know how to play it but you encounter someone who knows how to abuse it to the max extent. Basically two equally aware and skilled players.
Then you see all the flaws in wall design in AOE3.

[deleted_user]

Then how do I boom and counter walls or play the lategame? What if I didnt pick a lategame deck? What if I play a civ that doesn't have strong lategame or water? These are honest questions, which is why I believe that is why turtling has an advantage in that regard. If you aren't prepared to go lategame from the first second it's not likely that you can counter it.

First of all, thanks for proving my point. Back topic, Blackstar was not using tr40 deck to beat kynesie when he beat him, some people like H2o Bsop Samwise Mitoe diarouga Garja, myself, were trying to counter his playstyle. While players like Like Kaiserklein, Lordraphael and some others trying to whine and waste time on forums.

I don't see how I prove you. You state the fact that some players are better or have won against kynesie (walls/water)

No. The complain is actually coming from bad players, because a good player never needs to have excuse about the taken loss. To beat kynesie style I would recommend to watch what "Real" good players did against it. You wont find any answer because all they did was to adapt his playstyle and counter him. For example in baja california vs japan sea you can go 12 cdb up as french and make an outpost to coast into 3 caravels take his side bla bla. Or something else. Unfortunately there isnt any spesific build order that will work for everygame unless you are Re iro qs'er.

[Gendarme]

nepuvir sb gVGeG

[deleted_user]

Then how do I boom and counter walls or play the lategame? What if I didnt pick a lategame deck? What if I play a civ that doesn't have strong lategame or water? These are honest questions, which is why I believe that is why turtling has an advantage in that regard. If you aren't prepared to go lategame from the first second it's not likely that you can counter it.

First of all, thanks for proving my point. Back topic, Blackstar was not using tr40 deck to beat kynesie when he beat him, some people like H2o Bsop Samwise Mitoe diarouga Garja, myself, were trying to counter his playstyle. While players like Like Kaiserklein, Lordraphael and some others trying to whine and waste time on forums.

I don't see how I prove you. You state the fact that some players are better or have won against kynesie (walls/water)

Also best example to explain the situation is piroshiki ff, for example if Iamgrunt came back to game and never met prioshiki before. For high chances grunt would lose. Because the strat is hard to stop if you dont know how to beat it or what he is doing. Once you figure out the weakness of piroshiki, You can win him easily. Same goes for kynesie style..
Bad players will just keep complaining while real players will try to adapt.

[Gendarme]

nepuvir sb gVGeG

[momuuu]

I know how to go to the store and buy myself food. I don't want to do that though, I want to just order food. People in this thread are basically saying that people that just want to order food don't know how to go to the store and buy themselves food, which seems like a weird argument that completely misses the point.

[Garja]

I'm sure grunt would lose to piroshiki ye.

[Gendarme]

nepuvir sb gVGeG

[momuuu]

I know how to go to the store and buy myself food. I don't want to do that though, I want to just order food. People in this thread are basically saying that people that just want to order food don't know how to go to the store and buy themselves food, which seems like a weird argument that completely misses the point.

A typical commie. Wants everyone else to work while he only receives benefits.

communism works. The pizzeria where I order gives free soda if you don't order through the capitalist normal delivery site and instead order directly.

[Kaiserklein]

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Then how do I boom and counter walls or play the lategame? What if I didnt pick a lategame deck? What if I play a civ that doesn't have strong lategame or water? These are honest questions, which is why I believe that is why turtling has an advantage in that regard. If you aren't prepared to go lategame from the first second it's not likely that you can counter it.

First of all, thanks for proving my point. Back topic, Blackstar was not using tr40 deck to beat kynesie when he beat him, some people like H2o Bsop Samwise Mitoe diarouga Garja, myself, were trying to counter his playstyle. While players like Like Kaiserklein, Lordraphael and some others trying to whine and waste time on forums.

I don't see how I prove you. You state the fact that some players are better or have won against kynesie (walls/water)

No. The complain is actually coming from bad players, because a good player never needs to have excuse about the taken loss. To beat kynesie style I would recommend to watch what "Real" good players did against it. You wont find any answer because all they did was to adapt his playstyle and counter him. For example in baja california vs japan sea you can go 12 cdb up as french and make an outpost to coast into 3 caravels take his side bla bla. Or something else. Unfortunately there isnt any spesific build order that will work for everygame unless you are Re iro qs'er.

So if you lose to iro on RE and complain about iro being broken you're a "bad" player?
Anyway it's funny to see breeze calling people with 10 pr more than him "bad"

Jesus I hope you keep being so dumb and get kicked from the media team asap cause esoc will look ridiculous with you inside

[edeholland]

Can we perhaps not make this personal and start to throw insults? It will only be harmful to the discussion and the community.

[Kaiserklein]

How to not make it personal with breeze? It's too hard to resist

[edeholland]

He chose to report your post instead of responding, which is a pretty good way of doing that. Otherwise, try a grudge match.

[Gendarme]

nepuvir sb gVGeG

[n0el]

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Then how do I boom and counter walls or play the lategame? What if I didnt pick a lategame deck? What if I play a civ that doesn't have strong lategame or water? These are honest questions, which is why I believe that is why turtling has an advantage in that regard. If you aren't prepared to go lategame from the first second it's not likely that you can counter it.

First of all, thanks for proving my point. Back topic, Blackstar was not using tr40 deck to beat kynesie when he beat him, some people like H2o Bsop Samwise Mitoe diarouga Garja, myself, were trying to counter his playstyle. While players like Like Kaiserklein, Lordraphael and some others trying to whine and waste time on forums.

I don't see how I prove you. You state the fact that some players are better or have won against kynesie (walls/water)

Also best example to explain the situation is piroshiki ff, for example if Iamgrunt came back to game and never met prioshiki before. For high chances grunt would lose. Because the strat is hard to stop if you dont know how to beat it or what he is doing. Once you figure out the weakness of piroshiki, You can win him easily. Same goes for kynesie style..
Bad players will just keep complaining while real players will try to adapt.

Pretty good analogy

[Hazza54321]

Aww he reported the post @deleted_user5 you werr always cute ❤️

[Kaiserklein]

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Then how do I boom and counter walls or play the lategame? What if I didnt pick a lategame deck? What if I play a civ that doesn't have strong lategame or water? These are honest questions, which is why I believe that is why turtling has an advantage in that regard. If you aren't prepared to go lategame from the first second it's not likely that you can counter it.

First of all, thanks for proving my point. Back topic, Blackstar was not using tr40 deck to beat kynesie when he beat him, some people like H2o Bsop Samwise Mitoe diarouga Garja, myself, were trying to counter his playstyle. While players like Like Kaiserklein, Lordraphael and some others trying to whine and waste time on forums.

I don't see how I prove you. You state the fact that some players are better or have won against kynesie (walls/water)

Also best example to explain the situation is piroshiki ff, for example if Iamgrunt came back to game and never met prioshiki before. For high chances grunt would lose. Because the strat is hard to stop if you dont know how to beat it or what he is doing. Once you figure out the weakness of piroshiki, You can win him easily. Same goes for kynesie style..
Bad players will just keep complaining while real players will try to adapt.

Pretty good analogy

The analogy is wrong. There's a simple word to describe this kind of strats, it's "cheese". Piroshiki ff is cheese, as in, it's bad but it can work if you don't know it's coming. Side base double rax pike to siege tc down when opponent is doing a cav semi is also cheese, for example.
Water, walls etc isn't cheese, pretty much the opposite. It's strong and easy to scout.

[edeholland]

Hard walling usually means that you have to forfeit map control for pretty much the entire game if your opponent plays it well: paying for the walls and the time to build them is worth at least 200-300+ resources (depending on how large the wall is and how many layers this cost is sometimes much higher; also depends on if the person walling deletes the pillars), which is more than enough for the opponent to invest those resources into some other advantage like stagecoach, or to age up earlier and get some other tech advantage.

200-300 resources is absolutely nothing though. It's less than the resources spend on 5-10 musks to defend raids. If you just kill 3 units that are sieging your wall, it was worth the resources. If you only save a single villager by walling it was probably worth it. Walls with bastion are a low-cost "get out of jail" card for mistakes you have made.

You aged up 2 minutes later because of bad micro or decisions? Just throw up a wall and buy those 2 minutes back. You suck at herding? Throw up a wall and you will see raids coming long before they get to your villagers.
Forgot to make anti-cav? Doesn't matter, just build a wall and put your longbows behind it, no need for countering units!

200-300 resources aren't an investment in fortress age, it's throwaway money. I think it's pretty cool if you have to actually invest in a wall to complement your base structure or to protect yourself against raids/units. Right now, walls are pretty much always worth it, which means there is zero strategy behind it. Just think about it. When you siege down a wall, are you satisfied? Are you happier when sieging down a town center or when sieging down a wall? I'm confident almost everyone is happier when a town center is down, because a town center is an investment, it takes a minute to build and 500w while a wall piece is 5 wood, build in 2 seconds. Sieging down a wall means "Okay cool, now we can actually start fighting" while sieging down a Town Center means "Nice, I hurt his eco".

When a wall segment costs you 50 wood + 20 build points, it would be interesting. You have to choose to either wall up, or make a second town center. You would have to strategically place walls in your base and try your best to place your building so that you don't need too many walls, because they are expensive. When sieging it down you would actually be satisfied because you know you just killed something important. It also means you can't spam walls while the enemy is sieging because that would be too expensive and too slow.