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Germany Scroogie
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10 Feb 2019, 14:07

Hello guys,

this is my first guide and first post so any feedback u might have is welcome.

I mainly play French and have been experimenting with bo's lately and i came up with one that i thought was worth sharing. It is essentially a Samwise build, but you get the TP which normally you wouldnt do. I wrote out the Samwise-BO so someone unfamiliar with it doesnt have to research.

0:00 Put all vills to the food crates, create CdB asap, should be in at ~0:07, then send one vill to herd and micro the other vills according to your crate start. The different crate Starts:
-200w: Chop 100w extra and get a TP and a house (prioritize food and wood treasures, as they will reduce age-up time)
-100w 100c: chop 50w and 125c, get a Market, Hunting Dogs, buy 100w with 125c and get a house (all treasures can help with age-up time)
for these first two you want to age with 14 vills
-100w 100f: get a house and age with 13 vills (prioritize food treasures to speed up age-up)

3:00 Click your age up, and send 7 vills to wood and 2 or 3 to go herding, so that you have 7food and 7wood vills. If you got a TP in age 1, get 225w and 50c, build a market and research hunting dogs and placer mines. If you got a Market, chop 275wood and get a TP and placer mines. When you have the wood you need, switch all wood-vills to coin.

4:40 Upon age-up, immediately send 700w, then send 2CdBs to gather the 400w from the Quartermaster. Build a Stable and a Barracks in that order, queue a Huss at 5:20 and a Musk at 5:30. (I wouldnt do it earlier or you wont get out enough units)

5:10 When the 700w arrives, send 3 or 4 CdBs to gather it up and build 2 houses asap.

5:55 Finish you batches, prioritize Huss over Musk. I usually get 5 Huss and 3 musk.

6:00 Send the 4 vills card, queue another musk and get Steel Traps. Because of Steel Traps you should have less coin, so make a musk batch and start training Huss only later.

This gives you the eco-aggro potential of the Samwise build + a TP, so your entire shipment progession is going to speed up a lot, and all you sacrificed was ~90food from Steel Traps coming later. I think this is totally worth it.

If you have any ideas/improvements please share them down below.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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10 Feb 2019, 14:43

To be fair, I think that getting steel traps right away and delaying the rax is better. 3 musks aren't going to do much anyway, and as you said, you'll have less food and no coin (because you'll need to spend 125c for steel traps) for your 2nd batch.
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Italy Garja
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10 Feb 2019, 14:54

It is one of those things that changes quite a lot from RE and EP.
On EP having musks out ASAP isn't that important and actually minutemen do the same job but for a much better price. On the other hand, on RE you have to claim the map most of times as a condition to not lose so need to prioritize unit production.
On EP I'd say you want a full batch of huss to compete in the raid play so, unless it's a TP start I would send 700w 4v, chopping only 25w and delaying steel traps to 700w, as well as raxes. TP > steel traps ASAP on EP.
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France Kaiserklein
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10 Feb 2019, 15:00

Most of the time the standard 4 cdb stable start is just superior. Having 4 cdbs + steel traps + tp asap means you'll be able to get a good first and second batch of huss easily, while also having 700w quickly to add a rax or two. Samwise with a TP means you won't get very good batches out, and you're delaying your 4 cdbs so your 2nd batch will be weak. And in a vast majority of cases you really don't need these few musks early on since you have cdbs or mm.

But it could be useful against a civ like russia I guess, to try and surprise him and catch his army and clean up (though I'm afraid you'll get idled and get even worse batches out). Imo a more interesting alternative is going bow/huss, since you'll have to pay only 200f for your batch of 5 bows, which is actually less than what you need for 3 musks. 5 huss + 5 bows can actually be quite scary if the opponent tries to rush you. And in an aggressive manner in some match ups (like against germany or dutch) you can do the same with 5 pikes + 5 huss.
Thanks for sharing the build anyway
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Italy Garja
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10 Feb 2019, 15:11

The reason why meta went from 4v 700w to 700w 4v is because earlier musks provide an advantages in mirror that stay colonial. With a TP start meta is usually to go semi FF as the window to punish it with huss+musk is narrower and there is more incentive in going age3 for better shipments.
Surely there a discount factor to take in consideration on EP for which a 2nd batch of huss might be more useful earlier in the raid play. But still a lot depends on how the game is played out. If you have good map awareness I don't think you leave much room for raids and then whoever made 2nd huss batch will find himself with less musks and more huss which is not optimal in musk war.
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France Kaiserklein
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10 Feb 2019, 15:17

Do these musks provide an advantage though? It's not like the extra 3 musks will allow you to pressure your opponent. If he scouts your rax + stable he can just sit in his base with 5 huss and age, or just add 2 raxes off 700w and match your musk mass.
When I mentioned the second huss batch, I wasn't talking about a mirror where one guy would go samwise while the other does standard cav stuff. I just meant overall, going samwise weakens the second batch.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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10 Feb 2019, 15:22

Kaiserklein wrote:Do these musks provide an advantage though? It's not like the extra 3 musks will allow you to pressure your opponent. If he scouts your rax + stable he can just sit in his base with 5 huss and age, or just add 2 raxes off 700w and match your musk mass.
When I mentioned the second huss batch, I wasn't talking about a mirror where one guy would go samwise while the other does standard cav stuff. I just meant overall, going samwise weakens the second batch.

Well it does matter if you can kill your opponent's TP. I'm not sure it would work in practice though, and 5 pikes are probably better than 3 musks for that job anyway.
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10 Feb 2019, 15:24

Sorry to interrupt. Do you think the BO is worth to be featured on the Strategy Wall?
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10 Feb 2019, 15:27

Here I'm not talking of rax+stable with 400w (samwise build). I agree that on EP the advantage provided by adding a rax that early is questionable to say the least.
I'm just saying that, from what I used to test in past, in colonial wars (so usually only on non TP starts) having raxes down a good minute earlier does provide an advatange as it will results in more musketeers for when the big battle comes. Clearly EP skewed the timings a bit because hunts in base last longer so the unavoidable musk battle is delayed (which means there is potentially more room to raid or just age up).
Also the argument against 4v 700w is that 4v 700g gets tempo over that. I suppose in practice 4v 700w keeps working because everyone goes autopilot with 2 huss batches (correct move but only if both players play optimal build). However, I think that with 4v 700g if you just stop at 5 huss semi while staying defensive and opponent goes 4v 700w with 2 huss batches you get massive tempo while the opponent can't punish you for less huss (again because of EP maps). If opponent with 4v 700w doesn't train a 2nd huss batch he will also be behind in tempo because without starting TP he has no fast xp for 700g.
In all of this it is even possible that completely skipping TP (no TP start) and going 700w 4v full colonial can punish an EP meta TP+4v 700w.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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10 Feb 2019, 15:52

BrookG wrote:Sorry to interrupt. Do you think the BO is worth to be featured on the Strategy Wall?

To be fair TP into 700w/4cdb is already included in GS' guide. The only difference is that here you skip steel traps which is not worth in my opinion.
I think that the average player won't see the difference between this build and a TP 700w build, and at high level you don't want to do this...
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France Kaiserklein
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10 Feb 2019, 15:55

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Do these musks provide an advantage though? It's not like the extra 3 musks will allow you to pressure your opponent. If he scouts your rax + stable he can just sit in his base with 5 huss and age, or just add 2 raxes off 700w and match your musk mass.
When I mentioned the second huss batch, I wasn't talking about a mirror where one guy would go samwise while the other does standard cav stuff. I just meant overall, going samwise weakens the second batch.

Well it does matter if you can kill your opponent's TP. I'm not sure it would work in practice though, and 5 pikes are probably better than 3 musks for that job anyway.

I don't think it would work since opponent can just add musks and have more mass because of earlier 4 cdbs

Garja wrote:Here I'm not talking of rax+stable with 400w (samwise build). I agree that on EP the advantage provided by adding a rax that early is questionable to say the least.
I'm just saying that, from what I used to test in past, in colonial wars (so usually only on non TP starts) having raxes down a good minute earlier does provide an advatange as it will results in more musketeers for when the big battle comes. Clearly EP skewed the timings a bit because hunts in base last longer so the unavoidable musk battle is delayed (which means there is potentially more room to raid or just age up).
Also the argument against 4v 700w is that 4v 700g gets tempo over that. I suppose in practice 4v 700w keeps working because everyone goes autopilot with 2 huss batches (correct move but only if both players play optimal build). However, I think that with 4v 700g if you just stop at 5 huss semi while staying defensive and opponent goes 4v 700w with 2 huss batches you get massive tempo while the opponent can't punish you for less huss (again because of EP maps). If opponent with 4v 700w doesn't train a 2nd huss batch he will also be behind in tempo because without starting TP he has no fast xp for 700g.
In all of this it is even possible that completely skipping TP (no TP start) and going 700w 4v full colonial can punish an EP meta TP+4v 700w.

Well on a low hunt map I guess samwise build could be ok. But overall, even on RE, I'd just age, so you don't really have to care about the musk count.
In fact, in theory, I'd argue that aging 1 card later than your opponent is usually better. If he goes 4 cdb 700g and you go 4 cdb 700w 700g, you have a window to idle him and do some damage while he's aging/about to age, while aging yourself just after (and he won't have 700w, so bad infrastructures). With the same logic, if your opponent goes 4 cdb 700w 700g, you can try to do 4 cdb 700w 700g 600g and get a big batch of musk + huss out from 700g. Problem is that shipments get slower and slower to come, which means that you might be too late with your push if you start going for a 4 cards semi (from my experience that timing to counter the 3 cards semi works only on 200w start for that reason).
Dunno what you mean with 2 huss batches though, you get 5 + 5 or at least 5 + 4 huss out usually. And yeah no one would do a 5 huss semi with 4 cdb 700w 700g without an early TP.
I doubt colonial without a TP can ever punish that kind of semi on EP. The guy will just hold and have a better follow up

BrookG wrote:Sorry to interrupt. Do you think the BO is worth to be featured on the Strategy Wall?

I think it's fine yeah.
Edit: didn't see he skipped steel traps, well that's probably just inferior to a standard samwise build
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10 Feb 2019, 17:00

Kaiserklein wrote:Well on a low hunt map I guess samwise build could be ok. But overall, even on RE, I'd just age, so you don't really have to care about the musk count.
In fact, in theory, I'd argue that aging 1 card later than your opponent is usually better. If he goes 4 cdb 700g and you go 4 cdb 700w 700g, you have a window to idle him and do some damage while he's aging/about to age, while aging yourself just after (and he won't have 700w, so bad infrastructures). With the same logic, if your opponent goes 4 cdb 700w 700g, you can try to do 4 cdb 700w 700g 600g and get a big batch of musk + huss out from 700g. Problem is that shipments get slower and slower to come, which means that you might be too late with your push if you start going for a 4 cards semi (from my experience that timing to counter the 3 cards semi works only on 200w start for that reason).
Dunno what you mean with 2 huss batches though, you get 5 + 5 or at least 5 + 4 huss out usually. And yeah no one would do a 5 huss semi with 4 cdb 700w 700g without an early TP.
I doubt colonial without a TP can ever punish that kind of semi on EP. The guy will just hold and have a better follow up

On the average RE map I'd say that textbook musk/huss push + age up follow up works most of times. Again, I'm not talking specifically of Sam build (rax+stable opening) but in general 700w 4v for earlier musk production. I mean on RE, and sometimes even on EP, if you come with 20 musks and 5 huss and opponents has 10 huss you just do a lot of damage and then you have all the infrastrcture to just match skirm/goon count or w/e. Again, this is without a TP start. With a TP start I wouldn't even bothering adding a rax before aging because I wouldn't make a single musketeer anyway.
Please not that with a TP start (the only one where I consider 4v first superior to 700w) you don't really have a window to do damage with 4v 700w vs 4v 700g. 700g ensures 5-5 huss (not granted without 700g for the 2nd batch) and in any case makes you age up earlier, regardless if you make or not more batches of huss (again on EP can even hold 5 huss + mm vs 10 huss sometimes or for sure 8 huss vs 10 huss).
And without a TP start 700w 4v 700g is better than 4v 700w 700g because of earlier 2 raxes. Again this is a broad assumption based on experience and theory crafiting. In practice often enough you get outplayed by raids with the 2nd batch of huss.
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France bwinner1
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10 Feb 2019, 17:33

One other difference on ep is that cdb cost more which probalby result in 1 less musk in your first batch and makes it really not so good.
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10 Feb 2019, 18:16

Thank you for all the insights, i mostly play RE (on ep i can't find players), and mostly against germans so i'm really interested in getting units out early and contesting the Uhlans while trying to slow his semi down. I really like Kaiserkleins idea of building bows or pikes instead of musk depending on the matchup, because that also uses wood from the 700w very efficiently, since you wouldn't need 5 houses or an extra rax immediately (since you got a TP most likely you want to age, making a 2nd rax not so good).
I don't think this is inferior to the Samwise build, imo a TP is much better than early steel traps, but maybe im misjudging the builds and this is then too slow for what the Samwise build tries to accomplish.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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10 Feb 2019, 19:18

Scroogie wrote:Thank you for all the insights, i mostly play RE (on ep i can't find players), and mostly against germans so i'm really interested in getting units out early and contesting the Uhlans while trying to slow his semi down. I really like Kaiserkleins idea of building bows or pikes instead of musk depending on the matchup, because that also uses wood from the 700w very efficiently, since you wouldn't need 5 houses or an extra rax immediately (since you got a TP most likely you want to age, making a 2nd rax not so good).
I don't think this is inferior to the Samwise build, imo a TP is much better than early steel traps, but maybe im misjudging the builds and this is then too slow for what the Samwise build tries to accomplish.

The TP is definitely much better than early steel traps, my point is that TP+early steel traps is better, although you don't get the musks.
You don't really need those 3 musks, and you're definitely not going to slow his semi ff with your first unit batch.

If you want to be agressive, the 5 huss/5pike build is the best. The idea is to get his TP, and then timing with 13huss+musks when he ages (something like 700w/4cdb/700w/3huss), but the best is probably to go for raphael's build (read his guide).
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10 Feb 2019, 20:38

I’ve never ever seen a game where 4v 700g beat 4v 700w 700g. I see people talking about going 4v 700g; does anyone know of an example of a tourney game where this happened?
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10 Feb 2019, 20:53

ovi12 wrote:I’ve never ever seen a game where 4v 700g beat 4v 700w 700g. I see people talking about going 4v 700g; does anyone know of an example of a tourney game where this happened?

4v/700w/700c is always better than 4v/700c. If you go 4v/700c you'll age sooner, which is nice, but you'll have to chop a ton of wood for houses and rax, and you won't outmass in the end. On top of that, you might get iddled if your opponent pushes with 10 hussars, but he doesn't even need to do that to get ahead.
4v/700w/700c/600c vs 4v/700w/700c is very close however. I like to stay longer in colonial because I think that you can do a lot with a musk/huss timing but if you don't manage to damage your opponent then you'll be behind.
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Italy Garja
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10 Feb 2019, 20:57

Nah it's not always better. In fact in semi FF war 4v 700g 700w is superor because you get each shipment exactly when it's needed, and yes you do end up aging slightly faster.
As for why you don't see that anymore is because players are sheep and copy each other instead of asking themselves why it used to be 4v 700g before.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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10 Feb 2019, 21:03

Garja wrote:Nah it's not always better. In fact in semi FF war 4v 700g 700w is superor because you get each shipment exactly when it's needed, and yes you do end up aging slightly faster.
As for why you don't see that anymore is because players are sheep and copy each other instead of asking themselves why it used to be 4v 700g before.

4v/700c/700w is totally viable (not sure if it's better than 4v/700w/700c because the latter might kill your TP) and it counters 4v/700c very hard (you won a french mirror vs mankle on Siberia doing that iirc), but it's not 4v/700c.
4v/700c is just always bad in mirror.
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10 Feb 2019, 21:12

4v 700g is not a build. With TP it is always 3 cards so, even in the worst case we are talking of something like 4v 700g 5 goons vs 4v 700w 700g. And since 5 goons give you tempo because you have a counter unit then you can send 1k wood, even tho you can probably bust opponent late age up by going 5goons unit unit, etc. and chopping for houses. Really the problem of 4v 700w 700g is that the 2nd card comes too late for a colonial push and too early for being useful in a semi FF.
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10 Feb 2019, 21:17

Garja wrote:4v 700g is not a build. With TP it is always 3 cards so, even in the worst case we are talking of something like 4v 700g 5 goons vs 4v 700w 700g. And since 5 goons give you tempo because you have a counter unit then you can send 1k wood, even tho you can probably bust opponent late age up by going 5goons unit unit, etc. and chopping for houses. Really the problem of 4v 700w 700g is that the 2nd card comes too late for a colonial push and too early for being useful in a semi FF.

4v/700c/700w is a better counter to 4v/700c than 4v/700w/700c, but 4v/700w/700c still counter 4v/700c. You can slow your opponent with a 15musk/5huss timing and iddle him, and then hold the 10 goon push fairly easily with a 10 skirm batch and a 8skirm shipment.
The goons might come slightly before the skirms but you don't care since goons don't kill cdb. Also there's no way you can do 5goons/1000w, you'll die to the skirm/goon counter push as you won't have a single skirm.
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10 Feb 2019, 21:48

4v 700g 700w is not even a counter. It is just that in villager seconds 700w = 8 skirm, 5 goons or w/e age3 card (maybe not falcs but no point in sending falcs first). So 700w is just as good as any other fortress shipment and actually more useful at that point in the game. For this reason 4v 700g 1000w would be even a better adaptation if game was passive enough for the player sending 1k wood to not get punished.
With 4v 700w the musk-huss push is just too weak to justify it. Even 700w 4v 700g is usually too slow to really punish 4v 700g 700w in a TP start game.
As for getting away with 5 goons 1k wood it is totally possible. I mean it's even possible to just go 4v 700g 700w 1k wood sometimes, so I don't see how shouldn't it be possible with 5 goons first when the other guy is aging 1 minute after you.
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10 Feb 2019, 23:55

Garja is correct here, IMO. 4v 700g is a fine build, and I do it a reasonable amount of the time actually. You can get a good timing vs the 700w variation of the semi-FF with 5 huss and 10 goons just after they age up and then follow up with 1000w and drop 2 raxes instead of 1 to compensate for being very slightly behind in skirmisher production, or just send 1000w and be ahead in VS. The big decider in French mirror anyway is not skirmisher mass but whoever wins the falc fight, and having more dragoons in that fight is more beneficial because you can more easily afford to just walk up and snipe one falc and run away, giving yourself a huge advantage.

It's just a different style of play, and neither style is bad. I've won many games doing 4v 700g into 10 goon timing or 1000w.

Also personally I don't think 4v 700g 700w is very good at all compared to saving the shipment, unless maybe you plan to follow it up with 1000w and 1000c.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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11 Feb 2019, 09:05

Mitoe wrote: here, IMO. 4v 700g is a fine build, and I do it a reasonable amount of the time actually. , . but whoever wins the falc fight, and having more dragoons in that fight is more beneficial because you can more easily afford to just walk up and snipe one falc and run away, giving yourself a huge advantage.

It's just a different style of play, and neither style is bad.



Garja is correct

Can't be

You can get a good timing vs the 700w variation of the semi-FF with 5 huss and 10 goons just after they age up

What do you mean by the 700w variation ? If you mean 4v/700c/700w then watch garja vs H2O from the pkclan (it was on Siberia so the tower helped a lot).
If you mean 4v/700w/700c, then you won't have the 5huss since you'll lose them to the musk/huss timing, and you'll be left with 10 goons vs 18 skirms.

and then follow up with 1000w and drop 2 raxes instead of 1 to compensate for being very slightly behind in skirmisher production

You go 2 rax with 700w too. Also, as I said, you can't go 1000w because you'll get iddled for long to the 18 skirm/5goon push.

or just send 1000w and be ahead in VS

If you do this you won't hold the musk/huss push.

The big decider in French mirror anyway is not skirmisher mass

It is. If you go 5goons/1000w you'll take a lot of damage from the skirm timing before you get the falcs. If you do 4v/700c you have to commit to unit shipments, at least 5goons/2falcs (which is risky) or 5goons/8skirms, and then it's probably not worth to send 1000w.

I've won many games doing 4v 700g into 10 goon timing or 1000w.

I've won many games doing Dutch FI, it's just a different style of play, and neither style is bad.

Also personally I don't think 4v 700g 700w is very good at all compared to saving the shipment, unless maybe you plan to follow it up with 1000w and 1000c.


Game 3. Garja tried hard to throw but still won.
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11 Feb 2019, 13:10

I dont know what that game is supposed to prove btw. I think it was 8 huss vs 3 huss and then 1k wood was even letting him catch up.

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