Netherlands momuuu
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ESO: Jerom_

11 Feb 2019, 12:54

tedere12 wrote:I don't think reviving explorer by changing it's stance was intented. What would be the purpose of it? Pull trick and treasure guard creeping have a purpose, they make the game a lot more functional, if they didn't exist the game would be a lot crappier.

Do you think the code that makes pull trick possible was put in there to enable skirms running away at 6 speed or so? Or do you think they put it in there so units form formations more smoothly?

Also, what makes you think the way treasure creeping works precisely was intended? For all we know they did intend the treasure guardians to reset when you leave the range, but it seems highly speculative to conclude that the behaviour that occurs when shooting treasure guardians outside of treasure range works the way they intended it to work.
France flontier
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11 Feb 2019, 13:10

Wow i havent read the whole discussion but there is some obvious point.

I'm not pro of this but i guess in every game (i hope) while it is designed, there is people who have to...test the game.

Do you think that these aoe3 guys haven't seen the pull trick and treasure creeping stuff while testing ? Well they fucked up so many others stuff on this game but you cant missed this 2 things after playing 5min of this game. So exept if the dev team of aoe3 created this game while drinking i dont know how they wouldn't have intended pull trick and treasure creeping.

On the other hand, alt-d isnt obvious to notice like the 2 others, and they probably missed to see it and fixed it thats why its a bug clearly not intended.
Netherlands momuuu
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11 Feb 2019, 13:15

flontier wrote:Wow i havent read the whole discussion but there is some obvious point.

I'm not pro of this but i guess in every game (i hope) while it is designed, there is people who have to...test the game.

Do you think that these aoe3 guys haven't seen the pull trick and treasure creeping stuff while testing ? Well they fucked up so many others stuff on this game but you cant missed this 2 things after playing 5min of this game. So exept if the dev team of aoe3 created this game while drinking i dont know how they wouldn't have intended pull trick and treasure creeping.

In the other hand, alt-d isnt obvious like the 2 others, and they probably missed to see it and fixed it thats why its a bug clearly not intended.

Pull trick is actually pretty new in aoe3's history, so I dont know how you concluded that a few devs would test and find it when millions of players took years to really discover it. I remember reading a quote from a streetfighter (or other popular fighting game) dev where they discovered the possibility to do infinite combos but decided to not patch it out because they thought it would be too hard to do.

This also doesn't rule out the possibility that they discovered the bug but left it in because they didnt dislike it. Something that happened a lot to sc broodwar for example
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United States of America Papist
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11 Feb 2019, 13:23

Kaiserklein wrote:Actually creeping is definitely not a bug. But side stepping most likely is


So side stepping (microing your explorer so the treasure guardian's attack gets messed up and it literally RUNS OFF THE MAP) is only "most likely" bug, but alt d is definitely bug? Can you clarify what your standard for declaring something a bug is?


As for creeping, are you telling me that animals doing this when shot outside the treasure radius was intentional?


You're free to think creeping is good or bad, but it's just silly to say this isn't a bug. Being able to kill guardians without taking any damage on your explorer defeats the entire treasure mechanic.

tedere12 wrote:I don't think reviving explorer by changing it's stance was intented. What would be the purpose of it? Pull trick and treasure guard creeping have a purpose, they make the game a lot more functional, if they didn't exist the game would be a lot crappier.

It definitely wasn't intended and I don't think anyone here is arguing that is was. The problem I have is with people calling alt d cheating because "it's a bug", while defending other bugs.
My first post, circa March 2015 :blush:
Papist wrote:@frycookofdoom. WTF are you talking about? There is no need for AoE to become a StarCraft rip-off. I sincerly doubt a historical game would attract the science fiction crowd anyways.
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Spain Snuden
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11 Feb 2019, 13:25

So if I press "Alt + d", my explorer revives?

If yes, the argument that it should be allowed is ridiculous.
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Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
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11 Feb 2019, 13:40

Snuden wrote:So if I press "Alt + d", my explorer revives?

If yes, the argument that it should be allowed is ridiculous.

Why?
France flontier
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11 Feb 2019, 13:46

momuuu wrote:Pull trick is actually pretty new in aoe3's history, so I dont know how you concluded that a few devs would test and find it when millions of players took years to really discover it.


Its not new at all...and you just cant remove it from the game for gameplay reason like tedere has explained there is purpose behind this.

momuuu wrote: I remember reading a quote from a streetfighter (or other popular fighting game) dev where they discovered the possibility to do infinite combos but decided to not patch it out because they thought it would be too hard to do.

This also doesn't rule out the possibility that they discovered the bug but left it in because they didnt dislike it. Something that happened a lot to sc broodwar for example


Yea as if they could have like it or it was hard to do... They take risk to do a game very different from aoe2 with HC cards, 3d graphisms and new mechanics like the snare effect to make the game more realistic and they could have accepted a bug where you can revive your explo by typing melee hotkey ? yea probably.
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Bolivia tedere12
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11 Feb 2019, 13:48

momuuu wrote:
tedere12 wrote:I don't think reviving explorer by changing it's stance was intented. What would be the purpose of it? Pull trick and treasure guard creeping have a purpose, they make the game a lot more functional, if they didn't exist the game would be a lot crappier.

Do you think the code that makes pull trick possible was put in there to enable skirms running away at 6 speed or so? Or do you think they put it in there so units form formations more smoothly?

Also, what makes you think the way treasure creeping works precisely was intended? For all we know they did intend the treasure guardians to reset when you leave the range, but it seems highly speculative to conclude that the behaviour that occurs when shooting treasure guardians outside of treasure range works the way they intended it to work.


Doesn't each unit have a maximum speed limit which is the speed it is allowed to move with when it is pulled into the army? The pull trick exists for the reason you mentioned, in games like stronghold crusader where there is no such thing, things can get very messy and it's frustrating to control your army. People might use it to pull their explorer and free him from snare, but the way I see it, it's exploiting a game mechanic for a different purpose, it's not a bug and it makes sense, unlike changing unit stance to revive a dead unit.

I believe it was intented because it would be really hard to take treasures if the treasure guardians kept running back to the treasure or attacked your explorer after the first shot. It would lead into enemy scouting the treasue before you can collect it, you losing your explorer and not being able to scout, less intense age 1 game and the game being more boring overall. Even if it was unintentional, it serves a purpose, whereas using alt + D to revive dead explorer doesn't.
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Netherlands momuuu
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11 Feb 2019, 13:51

flontier wrote:
momuuu wrote:Pull trick is actually pretty new in aoe3's history, so I dont know how you concluded that a few devs would test and find it when millions of players took years to really discover it.


Its not new at all...and you just cant remove it from the game for gameplay reason like tedere has explained there is purpose behind this.

Can you find a game or source from say, ~2010, where people actually discuss or use this pull trick? I don't recall seeing it or seeing it mentioned around then.

momuuu wrote: I remember reading a quote from a streetfighter (or other popular fighting game) dev where they discovered the possibility to do infinite combos but decided to not patch it out because they thought it would be too hard to do.

This also doesn't rule out the possibility that they discovered the bug but left it in because they didnt dislike it. Something that happened a lot to sc broodwar for example


Yea as if they could have like it or it was hard to do... They take risk to do a game very different from aoe2 with HC cards, 3d graphisms and new mechanics like the snare effect to make the game more realistic and they could have accepted a bug where you can revive your explo by typing melee hotkey ? yea probably.

Ultimately you are arguing that bugs are per definition cheats, arent you?
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Bolivia tedere12
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11 Feb 2019, 13:54

Papist wrote:
tedere12 wrote:I don't think reviving explorer by changing it's stance was intented. What would be the purpose of it? Pull trick and treasure guard creeping have a purpose, they make the game a lot more functional, if they didn't exist the game would be a lot crappier.

It definitely wasn't intended and I don't think anyone here is arguing that is was. The problem I have is with people calling alt d cheating because "it's a bug", while defending other bugs.

Alt + D is definitely not cheating in my opinion, I said that in my first post. It's however clearly an unintended feature people use to gain unfair advantage, the difference between reviving your exlorer to build a TP or steal a treasure or scouting and having a dead explorer is very big and could be game changing.
How could you compare alt + D to actual intended game mechanics that require (minimal) skill and effort and actually make some sense?
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Netherlands momuuu
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11 Feb 2019, 15:25

tedere12 wrote:
Papist wrote:
tedere12 wrote:I don't think reviving explorer by changing it's stance was intented. What would be the purpose of it? Pull trick and treasure guard creeping have a purpose, they make the game a lot more functional, if they didn't exist the game would be a lot crappier.

It definitely wasn't intended and I don't think anyone here is arguing that is was. The problem I have is with people calling alt d cheating because "it's a bug", while defending other bugs.

Alt + D is definitely not cheating in my opinion, I said that in my first post. It's however clearly an unintended feature people use to gain unfair advantage, the difference between reviving your exlorer to build a TP or steal a treasure or scouting and having a dead explorer is very big and could be game changing.
How could you compare alt + D to actual intended game mechanics that require (minimal) skill and effort and actually make some sense?

Again, why is it an unfair advantage if both players can use it?
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Netherlands Mr_Bramboy
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11 Feb 2019, 15:29

momuuu wrote:
tedere12 wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Alt + D is definitely not cheating in my opinion, I said that in my first post. It's however clearly an unintended feature people use to gain unfair advantage, the difference between reviving your exlorer to build a TP or steal a treasure or scouting and having a dead explorer is very big and could be game changing.
How could you compare alt + D to actual intended game mechanics that require (minimal) skill and effort and actually make some sense?

Again, why is it an unfair advantage if both players can use it?

https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=14833
Netherlands momuuu
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11 Feb 2019, 15:37

Mr_Bramboy wrote:
momuuu wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Again, why is it an unfair advantage if both players can use it?

https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=14833

Do you understand what "unfair advantage" means?
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United States of America _H2O
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11 Feb 2019, 15:41

This is just arguing for the sake of arguing. It’s not helpful to confuse people on this topic with the exploit being obviously bad for the game. Not only is it unproductive, it is selfish to create such a debate on the topic and defend the obviously wrong position just to engage in debate. All you get is confusion and more people thinking they can justify using this tactic in games.
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Czech Republic EAGLEMUT
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11 Feb 2019, 15:54

momuuu wrote:
Mr_Bramboy wrote:
Show hidden quotes

https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=14833

Do you understand what "unfair advantage" means?

Exploiting game bugs falls well within "unfair advantage", that's why it is typically a bannable offense in actively moderated online games.

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France kami_ryu
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11 Feb 2019, 15:58

Yeah, I mean point trading isn't even bug exploit. It follows the rules to a T. why would they even ban that?

This discussion is absolutely retarded.
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Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
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11 Feb 2019, 16:00

So what? You can't call something unfair that is not unfair.

Well I guess you can, but that's the actual "retarded" thing going on here.
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Bolivia tedere12
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11 Feb 2019, 16:08

momuuu wrote:
tedere12 wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Alt + D is definitely not cheating in my opinion, I said that in my first post. It's however clearly an unintended feature people use to gain unfair advantage, the difference between reviving your exlorer to build a TP or steal a treasure or scouting and having a dead explorer is very big and could be game changing.
How could you compare alt + D to actual intended game mechanics that require (minimal) skill and effort and actually make some sense?

Again, why is it an unfair advantage if both players can use it?

because not both players have the opportunity to use it in order to gain an advantage. The way I see it, using alt + D to revive your explorer is equal to making certain mistakes and getting away with them/not getting punished as you should. Therefore, they gain an advantage over what should happen if they didn't revive their explorer.
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Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
ESO: Jerom_

11 Feb 2019, 16:13

Saying using alt-d is unfair is like getting angry that the opposing football team is trying to use offside to their advantage.

It's like saying it's unfair that the opponent is killing your explorer to begin with. By this standard anything can be called unfair because it's just completely arbitrary.
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France Kaiserklein
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11 Feb 2019, 16:18

Honestly not worth wasting time answering jerom and papist, they just lack the common sense required to make a difference between obvious glitches and abusing well defined mechanics. I'm being rude but it's just the truth
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Hungary Dsy
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11 Feb 2019, 16:19

Its just a dev question. Just fix it and no issue more.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
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ESO: Jerom_

11 Feb 2019, 16:21

Kaiserklein wrote:Honestly not worth wasting time answering jerom and papist, they just lack the common sense required to make a difference between obvious glitches and abusing well defined mechanics. I'm being rude but it's just the truth

I'd say you can't defend the views that you consider obvious, and thus you just resort to insulting people instead. If only you had the common sense and mental capacity to defend your views.

In this thread there are zero solid arguments to prove that alt-d is a cheat. There's not a single reason that shows why alt-d is somehow inherently unfair. People that back up and just claim "its obvious" are very sad people in my eyes. Don't you guys want a reason to believe something? Or is just following your very first instinct of what others have said for the rest of your life enough for you? I'm happy I'm not such a simple sheep.
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France Kaiserklein
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11 Feb 2019, 16:22

I've explained my point countless times in other threads, not gonna bother again just because like 5% of the community can't understand them and keep crying about alt d every single time
Micro tricks

LoOk_tOm: I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..

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Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
ESO: Jerom_

11 Feb 2019, 16:23

Kaiserklein wrote:I've explained my point countless times in other threads, not gonna bother again just because like 5% of the community can't understand them and keep crying about alt d every single time

Haha, the "I explained this before and I don't care but I'm right" argument. How sad. Not that I'm surprised.
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France Kaiserklein
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11 Feb 2019, 16:26

Jaja
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LoOk_tOm: I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..

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